SplaTtzZ

You gotta give Vin Diesel credit though; he made a really good Riddick. Did anyone play Escape from Butcher Bay? I thought that it was a good movie-turn-game; and kept the feel of the movies quite well, though i was surprised (and a little disappointed) at how they decided to grant Riddick his night-sight. Xhibit as Abbot the Guard was awesome; and it was great the way they got alot of the actors from the movie for voice acting.

Resident Evil 1 & 2 Alien Vs Predator Doom (Ok, I know it hasnt been released, so im judging it prematurely, but I seriously can't see it doing very well; esp. considering how bad the game was) Alone in the Dark Pretty Much any game made into a movie I really can't stand movies that are based on games. I think alot of games, like Alone in the Dark, can have quite deep and interesting storylines, and could become really really great movies. But Hollywood, after its successes with some of its comic remakes seems to be churning out as many low budget game remakes as it can, for whatever reason. Paul Anderson; the 'genius' responsible for Resident Evil and Alien Vs. predator, IMO is such a complete mental fucktard he should have director's deck-chair being broken over his head as opposed to letting him sit in one. I mean sure, not all games have great story lines to them (Particularly 1st Person Shooters) but why is it that the Alien Vs. Predator 2 game had a better script, character interaction and ambience, using poor voice acting and un-emotive models and animations; than a movie with real actors? Uwe Bolle, the guy responsible for Alone in the Dark is also on par with Anderson as being a crazy son of a bitch who likes "Big Gun Battlez!1!" and "CG Monsters cos they're Scary!!!" and is someone I wouldnt even allow to direct a kindergarten nativity play; unless we wanted gratuitous sex scenes and baby jesus with a flamethrower. Its a shame that there are some great games, with good and interesting and intelligent story's to them out there; and hollywood allows a bunch of fucking retards to butcher them into poorly choreographed CG / Kung Fu / Gun fighting scenes, playing over and over again throughout the movie, with a 'cool' heavy metal soundtrack. Anyway i've had my rant hehe; maybe there is one movie out there based on a game that is good; but I have yet to see it.

Ombrenuit: Wow your idea sounds really, really interesting. Especially the climactic escape scene where the player heads towards the roof! Whilst i've never seen the insides of La Scala or many opera houses (except the Sydney Opera House ) I imagine it creates a diverse array of environments to explore; from long, close hallways to large, open auditoriums. It sounds like it'll be a hit. Personally; I've always liked the idea of the player, as a thief, being a third party in some larger conflict (and an enemy of the 1st and 2nd parties). Caught in the crossfire as it were. This conflict could be small; two rival gangs for example, or a lot larger, 2 armies. I've often toyed with the idea of a thief breaking into a castle already being besieged. The mission could be two-fold; breaking into the castle itself, robbing it, and then having to escape as the besieging army breaks through their enemy's defenses. The thief would be targeted by both sides. Im not sure whether this could be done with scripts or whether it would have to be 2 seperate missions. Also, I've also always liked the idea of the Thief entering somewhere high up. Life of the Party was one of my favourite missions because the player could not touch the ground and had to scale the Mechanist Tower. it was somethign different to what Thief missions normally offered up. I also like the idea of missions being based on historical designs; so having the player break into Neuschwanstein or Conway or even Burg Hohenwerfen (the Schloss Adler from Where Eagles Dare) would both provide breathtaking architecture and innovative gameplay. A castle mission allows for many different entrance and exit points, secret rooms, dangerous and daring acrobatics, climbing, mountaineering stuff etc. The limit of creativity is really up to the FM designer. The scope of missions like these is quite large though; so if I failed to create anything of these ideas I'd probably try my hand at making scary and tense missions, like the Cradle or Equilibrium.

Great! Having guards with different acuity and noticing things out of place sounds really realistic. A question though; how easy is it for the player to knock something over or disturb the environment? In Thief: DS I noticed that the player had to literally be running against something like a chair for a while before it fell over. And then sometimes it was as though all that pent up energy of him running against it was released in one go and it flew across the room! Will The Dark Mod be trying to implement collision physics a little more realistically than Thief: DS did? As I understand it, you would need to have a player model and some sort of Body Awareness (I'm not a coder or anything though), and without these it can often make it difficult for players to see whether they're touching an object in First Person.

This is good to hear. The more variety and options that you can grant to FM Designers (even though they may have to do a little work ) the better and more diverse their missions will be. I look forward to seeing some of Obscurus' forays into making a Victorian Era Fan-Made experience as much as I look forward to trying to create my own medieval/fantasy ones! If the D3 Engine is as flexible as I hear; it would be great to see some entirely new stuff! Imagine playing a misson where you rob the palace of a pharaoh or the Foro Romano or the Hanging Gardens of Babylon The beauty of a toolset is that it allows anyone to share their own opinion of how they think the game should be made. For me personally it wouldn't matter if certain TDM FM's had no magic or water arrows; so long as I enjoyed them. Think of the Shaleford Cradle, IMO a great map; it was full of Victorian Era elements like electric lighting, hell the idea of an insane asylum is Victorian. The Cradle was great even without fantasy elements. On the other hand in other levels I loved being able to shoot rope arrows into a beam of a high ceiling and drop down on unsuspecting guards below. So long as the map is enjoyable and well-made, magic or not-magic will become a moot point.

Agreed. Magic can work as a way of explaining the light source; so long as it too is also fleshed-out. That danger of using Magic and other fantasy elements as an excuse should be avoided. Adding that text to a book (the necromancer's notes or notebook?) goes a long way to aiding immersion and suspension of disbelief for players of that map. And I too agree with your observation Obscurus; that magic shouldn't be used as an excuse or inventory filler. I had no problem with rope arrows or climbing gloves though; magical though they were, at least they had some use. I too used water arrows very little, though I wouldn't take them out because I can't speak for other players who might like them. I like the idea of Victorian cities and such; the only problem being that at this stage that guns were quite common; including revolvers and shell-based rifles. I wouldn't mind it if it was early Victorian, late 1700's and early 1800's; with flint-lock rifles and pistols, but guards with revolvers would totally own our thief player. And lets not talk about giving the player a gun! with a victorian aged silencer or something

As a fan of fantasy literature and rpg games; i'm not entirely opposed to the concept surrounding 'magic'. It is still a plausible idea for a lightsource; I suppose its just a matter of opinion whether you like it or consider it realistic or not. What would be great to see would be a variety of different light sources, some scientific in nature and maybe some that are magical in nature; this way FM designers can cater to a specific audience. Its funny but light sources are such a crucial element of the game; having different 'styles' would offer FM devs a wide range of themes for their maps. Can any of you Darkmod Developers confirm that there will be multiple types of light sources (ie. lamps, magic, light bulbs etc.)? Personally; I'm a bit wary of promoting an all out Victorian Era (which i assume covers 1800-1900?) style for a Thief inspired mod. Mostly this is for aesthetic and gameplay reasons. One of the coolest things i wanted to do in Thief was assault a castle (well not assault, just rob blind ) complete with turrets and parapets! The Cathedral and Museum missions in Thief: DS came close, in terms of architecture etc. As far as i know, there weren't many castles built in the Victorian Era. Again, its all subjective to what individual players like. A castle can make great gameplay and mission design, and have high aesthetic value. As for the issue with electric lights and water arrows; well I suppose water arrows evolved with the need for Garret to be able to extinguish light sources from afar. In Splinter Cell: Chaos Theory you have the EMP transmitter thingy on the pistol. If we remove burning torches and magic from TDM; besides switching off the lights at their switch (not always possible) it would be difficult for players to extinguish the light source from afar without making noise (Though a type of EMP arrow springs to mind lol ). I suppose the best thing about Thief is that it is a fantasy game; allowing for elements from both the Medieval/Renaissance and Victorian Eras to each play a role in the game; and there is nothing wrong with that. I would miss assaulting that castle or scaling the heights of a cathedral or hiding from undead in catacombs; just as much as I would miss breaking into a victorian chateau or freaking out in an abandoned insane asylum. I reckon having elements of the two Eras together is what makes Thief, well Thief. The challenge for TDM's developers will be allowing for people with all their individual tastes to make these kind of maps; though you TDM guys sure seem to be doing one hell of a job so far .

There might be a 'realistic' solution that dev's could implement to solve the old problem of wood torches burning in the hundred-year old abandoned catacombs of where-ever. Don't quote me on this, but Whale Oil was used mostly during the Victorian Era; both in candles and lamps; and burned with a clear, bright flame that lasted for quite a while. It was also used in Asia. Supposedly the Emperor Qin's tomb, discovered in the last century, had lamps with a large vat of whale oil built in the wall behind them. Though reports are sketchy, because the tomb hasn't been opened to the public since its discovery in the 70's, the first people to enter the tomb found many of the lamps still burning (after a few thousand years). I suppose if we wanted a realistic solution to the lighting of abandoned crypts and caves problem; this might be better than saying they're lit by 'magic' (of course Luminous Fungii is one too, but probably better for caves). As thief is in a fantasy setting, it would not be too much of a stretch to suppose that they would be able to implement a lamp with a reserve of oil built into the wall behind it. The modellers may be able to implement some design like this. Anyways, just a suggestion Edit: I suppose if the Dev's were so inclined they could also just create a torch thats 'magic; and that burns forever, unless put out'. Hey, Thief does have magical elements in it; so even this would be plausible! (But lazy)

Having a portable lightsource is definitely a good idea. On the one hand it benefits you with being able to see your environment; on the other it makes you a beacon to any AI in the area. If it acted like a lantern, with a light radius centred on the player, instead of a flashlight such as Doom 3 might use; then map designers could implement all sorts of spooky stuff. Imagine walking through a pitch black cavern only being able to see a metre in front of you when suddenly you run straight into a pack of silent zombies. Hehehe. I would probably soil myself

I second Oddity's opinion on this matter. CoD's single player element was utterly abysmal, (besides the eye candy) without any shred of integrity or realism. My particular beef was with the enemy AI, which played more like Serious Sam (without any of the latter's fun); rushing over walls and running blindly towards their doom. It really did feel like I was in a hollywood movie. It seems to be the trend now in game development to 'dumb' down the amount of things a player is able to do within a game besides point and click to shoot down hordes of stupid enemies. Games now focus more on graphics and eye candy than storyline or player interactivity. We're no longer designing games for 'MIT Graduates' as the saying goes. Dev's no longer seem to want to entertain us players with a decent plot, or with proper player interactivity. I long for the game that truly allows players to influence the plot and shape their own story within a game. I'm not talking about Deus Ex 2, where you could simply choose a different mission at the end of the game to unlock some retarded CG sequence; yeah thats real interaction with the plot right there I want to feel that every decision I make within an open-ended game really affects the world and the story my charcter undertakes. That is True interaction; which is why I look forward to Oblivion myself. Whilst it won't be the ultimate gameplay experience, at least the Bethesda Dev's seem to do know what they're doing, and are taking a step in the right direction.

Yes i can understand the time issues (not to mention legal/copyright issues) of creating a model and animations etc. that is really a novelty at best. If you aren't going to create new AI or models for stealthy enemies, how difficult would you say it would be for an average FM designer to design an enemy that could be stealthy? Is it simply a matter of removing any sounds that it makes and putting it in the shadows, or does it require some hard programming/coding of AI, such as setting transparency effects on the model, to work?

Alright, you beauty! I look forward to implementing it in any FM's I may undertake. I suppose I could get started now even; having a look at Doom 3's AI system and its scripts. But what about the movement of tables, chairs etc? What im thinking is if some custom animation could be applied to them; then the AI's scripts could run the animation on all objects within a certain radius. I realise that i could apply one-off individual scripts to these objects to make them move; but what I want is for that script to loop continously and be attached to the AI entity. Do you guys know if this is at all possible? As far as i know it cerainly isn't in T3ed.

OK, so one of the coolest things I thought about the Shaleford Cradle, arguably one of the best Thief maps ever, was only quite small. The Puppets; when they neared an electric light source; would make it flicker uncontrollably, even if they were separated from it by a wall or something. I was wondering whether you guys were thinking of implementing puppets in your mod; and/or whether they would have this same effect on the lighting? If you aren't creating a puppet model with this feature in place, would it be possible for FM designers to put it in? (through scripts or something) I haven't played Doom 3 in a while, so i dont know if they had lights that could flicker and turn off etc.; but i assume, judging by the power of the engine, that this would be possible. Having AI's interact with their environment in ways similar to the puppets adds a great deal to the immersion of the player within the game. What I'd love to see is ghosts and spirits that, when they near small objects, have random effects. So if it walked near a table and chairs, the table would start to shake and maybe chairs would levitate or something. (Anyon seen the videos for F.E.A.R? The little girl has the same effect on the environment in the game) These kind of small effects on the environment can become really atmospheric; something that the Thief games are best at developing. What would be absolutely awesome to see would be some kind of haunt-like figure that has a 'shroud' of darkness around it, making it seem like a living shadow. Again, I'm not a coder or designer or anything; I don't know how difficult any of this stuff would be to implement in your mod, but I do think it could really add a whole new dimension to the undead side of things anyway.

Of course, don't get me wrong; we don't want some impossible-to-beat AI. I'm no coder, but i assume it would be difficult to put in an enemy AI with the level of intelligence the player has anyway. I'm more interested in having enemies that create atmosphere and tension, and hunt you in much the same way you hunt them; through stealth. Mind you, it would be a shame if it was over-used; it would make Thief become something like Doom 3, which would be a great shame. I think FM authors would be advised to implement some subtle way of letting the player know that some areas within their maps do contain stealth AI; perhaps through a pick-up (or lack there of) in ambient music, or by a note within the stage or something like that. I don't want to see 50 million maps with enemies i can't see, much the same way as i don't like too many maps with undead in them. We need variety Another question; would it be possible to implement the Keeper Enforcers in the Darkmod? Are you planning on any models for them? And further, would it be possible to implement actual 'Telepathy'? Perhaps when one AI sees the player, there is a script informing other enforcers of his presence, in much the same way a guard will shout to alert other guards nearby (this would not be bounded by sound propagation limits however, it would instantaneously inform all enforcers on the map), and the other enforcer AI;s would come a'running to their mate!

Hooray! :lol: Can't wait to see what you guys come up with! I think adding in enemies who have some stealth capabilities, just like garret, puts them a little more on the players level and creates for some really compelling and challenging gameplay. It's a shame LGS didnt delve much into it (though those Treants in TMA certainly fit the bill in some ways) and I was very disappointed with the Keeper Enforcers in TDS; i thought those guys would be a little more tactful and, well, quieter; instead they pretty much nuked the entire city. It'll be great to implement some really elite guards who act just like a thief does! Anyway, i've taken enough of your time; again keep up the great work!

Great! Thanks for clearing that up! There are still a few more questions i would like to ask, if you guys don't mind. Firstly, will it be possible to make certain npc characters not have particular animations or sounds? I'm thinking in regards to stealth enemies here, particularly something akin to the statues in T: DS. Whilst i think Ion Storm implemented these guys quite poorly; the premise still remains quite sound. Imagine walking down a hallway filled with decorative stands of medieval armour; only to have one suddenly come to life and attack you! Could prove very frightening indeed. Now whilst I know you probably wouldnt go to the trouble of creating a completely new model and animation set; I was thinking of perhaps taking the existing models and maybe re-texturing them with a stone pattern to create a statue. Which leads me back to my original question, would I be able to remove animations (such as a "standing idle" one, even breathing animations) and sounds (breathing, whistling, "idle" sounds etc.) to make them seem like inanimate objects? On the same vein, will it also be possible to create a guard entity; but without any AI or animation at all? (for the purpose of creating simple; normal statues)

One of the best FM's i ever played was Equilibrium. The fact that you as Garret were up against other thieves created some very tense moments; i would spend ages staring at my screen trying to find out where my enemies were. I'm wondering whether the Darkmod will also allow for enemy A.I that has much the same stealth ability as Garret does. I've played through Doom 3 before, and noticed many areas of complete shadow; where you can't see any of your enemies. I suppose it could be as simple as putting an enemy in one of those areas. Failing that however, would it be possible to implement some code whereby the model of the stealth-enemy becomes transparent? (in much the same method that Thievery UT and Equilibrium used). In either case, i'm also wondering whether the AI's scripts could be modified so that our stealthed enemy acts less like a clunking armour-plated Benny and more like an assassin of sorts. For example, picture a room with a single pool of light in the center, around the edges complete darkness. Now our player has to cross that pool of light to continue, whilst our stealth-enemy lies in wait off to the side. What I'm wondering is whether, when the AI sees the player; does he have to attack immediately? Could he be configured to have noticed the player, (Due to light-gem, sound etc.) but lie in wait until certain parameter's have been fulifilled? (Such as the player crossing a certain way through the pool of light; or reaching a door at the end of the room). Does the D3 engine allow for such changes to an AI's behaviour? As a side note, whilst completion is a long way off for the Darkmod, I was wondering what you guys will be doing when your finished? I reckon you should start up a game design studio. The quality of your work and your dedication is astounding! You guys could go really far I think. Anyways, keep up the good work!