I have nothing against cutting edge graphics and I love it, but I don't like that people think bad graphics are a reason to forget games. But speaking of judging - usually a good game has cutting edge graphics anyway. Like Oblivion - tends to be great game and graphics, DooM 3 - good game and best engine; ahem, Heretic - one of the first games on DooM engine, good graphics and design, what's funny I never liked DooM for its dirtiness and bloodness. My childhood games still, but I never got a hang of DooM, maybe because I had both together, not just first DooM, then Heretic, then heXen, just a box with 50 games on it, I was 6 years old then... What am I talking about? Sorry, dosed of, I'm an overreacting fan of SotSR and can't stop talking about it. I'll check Thief out tomorrow, and if you don't mind I'll tell you the pros and cons I will find there, if it finishes downloading.