wesp5

Wasn't there somewhere a summary about the NPCs and their alert levels? Also can this changed easily by some config or def file?

Indeed, they sound cool ! Still the oil lamp change has aready been posted in this thread, it would only need a UI setting added for it to work for everyone. As for the changelog links mentioned here, except for some single additions, all major development seems to be done by only three guys! Looking at the huge bugtracker list that means a lot of work, my respect to them! Maybe I just need to be more patient ...

I already know this from my own patching work, pleasing everyone is not possible . Which is why I made this poll in the first place and right now more than half of the voters would like to have a feature like this implemented in some kind of way! It's not about my own setup, I already added this feature because it was so easy to do.

After reading this summary it seems that the biggest change since 2.0 is the pickpocketing reaction which is indeed great! And yes, I assumed TDM is rather complete right now so adding new features could be considered. That is if people actually want them which I get the impression is not really the case. With my own work I love restoring stuff, so that's why I'm a little bit disappointed that so many ideas are ignored here. But maybe your goals are different and you want to make TDM perfect like it is with no new major features or changes planned for the future at all.

I think it was once suggested to use holy water on the blackjack or the sword against undead, but it was never taken into consideration...

Maybe I'm overlooking something, so please tell me, since 2.0 (which was the first version I played), what new gameplay elements have been introduced? What new weapons, new arrows, new powerups, new items, new NPCs, new machines, new models have been added? Like actual new features?

Yeah, but the change discussed here isn't that critical compared to e.g. breaking electrical lights. Oil lamps can already be extinguished by water arrows, the suggested feature would only add another gameplay element when you want to save arrows or the mission has none in it. The same goes for other suggestions that were ignored, like all the holy water variations. Old missions wouldn't break, at the max they would become a bit easier, which could be the choice of the player like with the added AI difficulty settings.

This is something I could understand. So it's less about not wanting to include something, but fearing that you won't be able to do so in the long run anyway? That would be a shame! I had the impression TDM development is still very active, compared to other free games. Like I followed The Babylon Project for some time and development silently died with the last patch versions not even released to the greater public . So as I said, I come back to TDM every now and then and always have the feeling nothing has changed except bug fixes. And regarding the changelog and possible trolling, I just searched for "feature proposal" and found very little. Maybe a lot is hidden under other key words?

Okay, then it must be the last step closing up to him. If alerting him does not make him invincible like I thought, I must have the same problem as the original poster, because it looks as if I hit him fully on the head and he doesn't go down. Now is it true that once you hit a guard somewhere else than the head he becomes invincible? If that is the case, maybe again this could be changed until they have their sword out. Sometimes I have similar problems with civilians, but most of them fall with the second or third hit .

As for the first point, the only mission where this could be critical would be one without any water arrows or a section with more oil lamps somewhere than available water arrows as if the mapper could predict that. I never played any mission like this! As for the second point, realism is not arbitrary. And arguing that other lights could realistically be extinguished as well doesn't help, but rather in my opinion shows that a lot of developers here are quite closed to any introduction of new features to TDM... Sorry, if this sounds a little bit harsh, I'll try to explain. Maybe it is indeed your aim to optimize TDM, fix all the bugs and keep it like this forever. But just search the changelog since 2.0 and all feature proposals are either coding issues or UI details, which actually were bugtracked by me . Among all the cool gameplay things suggested in the improvement thread over the years nothing ever was implemented! And I remember some nice ideas regarding holy water and other new items. How about creating like a basic version with the current stuff and a plus version or something adding newer gameplay elements? I had to do the same with my Bloodlines patch because of a similar kind of gameplay purists .

My hearing sensitivity is default, I never changed it. A typical case would be I sneak up on a guard and then stand up to be high enough for blackjacking. The standing up is counted as last walking step or something, the guard says "huh" and is invincible immediately. I hit him over the head, which alerts him full: instant reload! Just make him vulnerable until he has his sword out or has completely turned! Just hearing something (alert level 1?) shouldn't make him invincible...

The problem is that it took me a bit to implement this change and I'm an experienced modder myself, only not for TDM. It's indeed not very user friendly to just say people can do it using an old by then old thread. What's so bad about adding an option for any users who want this feature? I can't really believe the argument that old missions are sooo important, this is used all the time when people ask for actual new game features, but it strangely was never an issue when the whole sound or AI systems were changed!

No. It only works for people who read this thread and don´t fear messing around with their game files. As the poll results are almost 50/50 % here I bet that there are thousands of players out there annoyed by this who will never stumble over the simple solution once this thread is outdated and gone. I accept that you will never make it default behaviour but why won´t you add it to the options with a warning that it may make old missions easier? Then it's up to every player himself!

2.03

Well, you and most others here are TDM veterans so nothing else is to be expected . I play a TDM mission now and then when I have nothing else to play and strange things happen sometimes. I usually blackjack everyone that I can to explore in peace. Now recently I did notice that some guards indeed react too quickly. It's probably not the swing itself but the last step I take getting out of cover to reach someone a little bit off. They say "Huh?" and are invincible right away! This should be changed in my opinion. I had another case where someone half turned to me and I could still blackjack him, so is there a difference between whether they heard me or saw me? As I suggested, why not make the invincible once their sword is completely out? As fas as I know this is the visible cue for guards that are invincible from the start, no?

Can't there just be a small delay added before they become alerted, like another second of two? Or can it be made that they can still be blackjacked in their first alert state? Like before they draw their swords they are vulnerable and only when the sword is full out it's too late!

My impression is that targets are going to the alerted state too fast. Like you approach and mid-swing you hear "Hm?" or something and it's all over, jackable from un-jackable in a second! I think it would be better if they would get un-jackable only after some seconds or even after turning around to see what made the noise. Actually I don´t really understand why there is such a big difference there at all, especially for not helmeted NPCs. It wouldn`t help them at all being alerted! Was it like this is Thief 1/2/3?

I'm fully aware that you left the more critical torches out of the discussion because you very well understand where I am coming from and you are only too stubborn to agree . As for the glass lights, you are right! Why not add this too ? FROB an electrical lamp and it will break with a loud noise that alerts nearby guards or maybe hit it with the blackjack instead. In my opinion this too would add to the gameplay and the consistency of TDM! Compared to snuffing out oil lamps it would be more dangerous, but why not? As for the storm oil lamps, the ones I found in TDM are looking similar to the one I have at home. Most of the time they are used in indoor mansions of the rich compared to torches outside or in more mundane homes. Nothing storm resistant needed and the player is wearing leather gloves anyway. As SeriousToni said, consistency is important so I would again recommend to select this by a difficulty setting option. It won't be a problem for mappers and all players could decide if they want to play the old or the new way!

I have a simple oil lamp at home, you can even blow it out like a candle!

Of course not, but the presentation inside the game would be! Even without seeing my hands, frobing a candle or an oil lamp to put them out seems realistic to me because I know it could be done in reality. It would be even better to see your hands, aka Thief 4, but I doubt this is an option. Now if I would do the same to a blazing torch inside a metal holder, just press frob and it's out without any sound, any mess, taking it out, putting something over it, throwing it on the floor. That would be quite unrealistic!

How would we do that? I can only imagine making this an option in difficulty setting with maybe a warning that it might make missions easier.

Maybe because it would be unrealistic? Which was the main reason I brought this topic up in the first place. I don't see the player exstingishing a torch without having either a huge wet cloth or getting the torch out and stomping on it on the floor which isn't always possible. Breaking an electrical lamp would make a lot of noise and you would need to fumble inside to destroy whatever gives off the light without getting electrocuted. But to play devils advocate: of course this could be added and it would give much more depth and realism to the game! Add an inventory item "cloth" and maybe "pliers" and off you go. But I'm really certain that no developer would stray so far away from what is tradition here !

Yes, but that was years ago and as it isn't the best mission either, I would assume people forget about such things . Still this could be fixed by the random tips that are going to be introduced in the next version! I just played the "Crown of Penitence" mission and extinguishing the oil lamps was a blast! There were a lot of them all over the mansion, but I don't think I used this to blackjack a guard that I couldn't have done otherwise. I noticed though, that I use to extingish all candles and lamps to mark my progress ...

Generally I agree to this, but here it's not that simple. Because unless you read somewhere about it, novice players don't even know that takeable candles can be put out! This seperation might be clear for the advanced TDM player, but for everyone else the logical real world approach would be more obvious and as some others beside me have stated, it just makes no sense that candles can be put out but oil lamps can't. As for torches and braziers and everything else suggested, this would need either new tools or the entity to be moved or destroyed. There is a huge diffence here that should be obvious to everyone.

What would be the difference to the AI difficulty settings that might do the same for any old map? Maybe add the option to the difficulty settings instead to general?