esme

Quick question

not usually a problem by the time I look for secret doors

Here's one I'd really like at the moment, something to highlight the hidden switches that open a secret door, I am going blind scouring bookshelves & bits of decoration looking for one at the mo, you can never be sure there isn't one, only that you haven't found one --EDIT-- Found the switch I was looking for, took a good hour of searching, well if it were easy it wouldn't be fun

@Wellingtoncrab

Dear lord this thing goes on forever, it's huge & so many things to explore This is your first map ? You've set a high bar for any new authors there, this feels a lot like The Painters Wife, so major kudos there I do have a problem though Also And finally I would like to say thank you, not just for a superb mission but for including a feature I have always wanted to see

Accidentally hit the console key while disarming, I know i really should bind it to a different key, but I go the best console message I've ever had Cannot find attachment penis to destroy in animation That just ended me, still chuckling now

TBH I never actually tried it on the k600, I use the 2nd screen mainly for debugging so I don't need fancy graphics on it, Plus as I remember the first cable I laid my hands on happened to fit so I just used that, next time I'm juggling cables I'll give it a shot

"how many people would have semi-iron manned Hazard Pay of their own volition?" - presumably those that wanted to ? Sorry but I'm still not seeing anything in being "Forced", "Encouraged" or not being my "own volition" that makes me want to rush out & play this But if that's what people want, let 'em have at it, I won't be joining them though

So it's a way for players who want to "Iron man" whole sections of the game to avoid being tempted ?

I agree mission authors should make the mission they want to, but if you're catering for two different save systems there's a tradeoff as Kingsal also pointed out

And again with belittling, you just can't help it can you But fair enough we can disagree on this, I've stated my position & you've stated yours

Good for you Question: have I said don't implement this ? I'll answer for you, NO I havent I've said you make whatever mission you like, but if it has this feature I won't play it & if it's on a particular difficulty I won't play that difficulty And considering it's already in the game, protesting it's implementation is a bit redundant So please make whatever weird & experimental missions you like, I'll still be using my standard metric of "Am I having fun?" when I play & if I'm not then I'll stop Are you OK with that ? or is there something else you want to try & make me do ?

You're lecturing me on "controlling" Have a read back through your previous posts please And once again it's a players personal decision to play a particular game, and that's not the authors concern, I keep saying you make what you want, but I don't have to play it To paraphrase, "You can lead the player to a game, but you can't make them play it" Yeah my broken record is the other side of yours

And there we go again with the belittling "your response shows that you either still don't understand the topic, or don't really want to understand it" well I do understand the topic if I want to play games with restricted saves I can throw a dart blindfold & play the one I hit And I just made the point elsewhere so I'll make it here too What's the trade off for this optional & experimental feature, how much effort will an author expend making a mission that plays well with the existing save function & also plays well with a restricted save function ? What will they miss out, what won't get added because they're busy implementing both systems ? All of these intangibles will remain so because you want to crowbar a mechanism from other game systems into this one Again, add something fun or something useful, don't do things just to frustrate the player And the other point going off the poll, which I know only has 28 responses, between a quarter & a third of players probably won't bother with that level so all that work will be wasted for them And yes I'm interested in my particular needs just like you are

I made the point in another thread How much effort will mission authors expend on making a mission that plays well with a standard save feature & for at least one difficulty setting uses a save room type feature, what other gameplay features won't be implemented or probably won't be thought of because the author spends their time implementing both systems, what's the trade off ? And the other point, according to the poll, somewhere between a quarter & a third of players probably aren't going to bother playing a restricted save level so all that effort will be wasted for them. How will the author respond, put extra goodies in the restricted save level to encourage people to play it ? have sections of the mission unavailable unless you play it with restricted saves ? Why not concentrate on innovating things that increase the fun & the gameplay rather than taking away a non gameplay mechanism we've had for 20 years, basically for the reason that "we've had it for 20 years & all these other games force you to do this & isn't that great" well yeah, why not go play one of those games then ? why mess with this one ?

You're very aggressive aren't you ? Someone doesn't like what you like, so out you come with demeaning & the belittling statements "lack of open mind and imagination here is rather disappointing", "The fact that there might be a difficulty mode you won't master, perhaps even called 'Expert', does that hurt anybody's ego or something? " Do you seriously think that's going to change anyone's mind or give your opinion any more weight ? I get the impression you think playing these games is all about bragging rights & anyone who doesn't just plain wrong & should be made fun of Well last time I checked there wasn't a league table & if there ever is I won't be taking part in it or care who's at the top or the bottom, I don't care how fast you beat expert, or your stealth score, or if you iron manned, or supreme ghosted, that's all you & I don't care All I'm interested in is one question "Am I having fun playing this ?" As for killing innovation, how about innovating something that adds to player enjoyment rather than adding to their frustration, give them something rather than taking it away Is it that innovation is hard & taking things away is easy? Or do you really think forcing a player to grind their way across the map covering the same territory & the same AI repeatedly is going to add to their enjoyment ? And before you turn this around & tell me I'm being belittling & demeaning remember you're attacking a non gameplay mechanism that's been part of the system without complaint since it's inception, which if you include the dark project is over 20 years & you got bent out of shape because I dared to say I wanted to know which missions would use this so I didn't waste my time playing something I wouldn't enjoy As I have said repeatedly, you create whatever game you like, I don't mind, but if you mess with basic controls like when I can save my progress I would like to know so I can go play something else & if it upsets you that your magnum opus, that you spent the last year making, isn't going to get played by me because of that, then I suggest that that's a you problem

Another couple of thoughts have occurred, how much effort are authors going to expend making these save rooms & building them into their mission ? What other actual gameplay features will be sacrificed ? I guess we'll never know this second one because those features won't be thought of as the author is busy And a final point authors are going to work harder making a mission that's engaging & fun to play with a normal save system & also for at least one level of difficulty they're going to change to a save room system without affecting the engagement & fun That's a lot of effort considering that between a quarter & a third of players probably aren't going to play that difficulty, based on a poll of 28 members @4th Feb 2022 so it may not be that representative

Having read that litany of disasters I don't think you need to be sorry for anything Welcome back, sorry you had so much trouble

Just an observation & I may be misreading, but most of the arguments for having the author control where the player can save discuss other games e.g. dark souls, left4dead, call of chernobyl etc or reference survival/horror genres, none of which I'm interested in playing And most of the arguments for having the player control where a game is saved reference TDM or Thief, which I am interested in playing My personal thought is that people who want to play these other style games are extremely well served & there must be some that allow authors to write fan missions, so why not write some for those Whereas those that want to play thief style missions in whatever playstyle they like, up to & including having one of those nodding glass birds perched over the save button, have Thief & TDM So if you want to author a mission that looks like these other games & you're going to stop the player from saving where they like because you really want them to experience the gut churning horror of it all, which seems to be the major argument, go right ahead I just want to know which ones do this, so I don't download them, start playing, save periodically, fuck things up, find my saves didn't work, complain to the team that my save function isn't working, waste half a day working out it's just this one game & it's not a bug it's a feature, wiping said game off my system, coming back on the forum & probably getting banned because of being less than complimentary to the author about the lack of warning I play these games for fun, not so I'm going to need therapy for the nightmares

Or phone calls, deliveries, kids, amorous interventions from your beloved, meal times, work, chores, visits or just generally life getting the way of some me time

Authors don't have to cater for everyone - And players don't have to play their missions, we play these games because they are unique, there's nothing else like TDM & Thief out there You want to make missions that play like every other game on the planet, go ahead, I just want to know which ones they are so I don't play them Yeah save scumming has been in use for over a decade, I remember when it first came out, I got a warm glow then too, didn't affect my play style then & won't now

Fair enough, just let me know that my "scumming" & classic thief gameplay isn't allowed so I don't download the mission "Scumming" such a nice term, gives me a warm glow

I don't play games I don't enjoy & I don't enjoy games where I'm restricted from saving my progress when the phone rings Like @AluminumHaste I have a life and it dictates how much game time I get So if it's an option, fine, put it in as long as it doesn't detract from the mission for those who don't use it But if it's not optional then that's a hard pass from me, put it in if you want, other people might like it, I'd just like to know before I download it I know these things are free to the player & they involve months, sometimes years of work & I do appreciate that I really hate complaining about all that hard work, because .. well I'm a talentless git who hasn't made a single TDM mission, but for me this is a mechanic that adds nothing but frustration

So have I got this right Instead of saving the game whenever we like, a feature we've had from the beginning, the proposal is we now have a designated spot where the game is auto saved ? If that's the case, can I request a flag somewhere on the download page that tells me which missions have this feature so I don't bother downloading them

Sorry for the necropost, but this seems to be the most appropriate thread, not sure if this is free but it's definitely an indie, bit light on details