demagogue

Dammit, don't they know I need my fix! You may as well record those two posts and put them on repeat, Komag. It looks like we're in for this for a while yet.

Well, being a phil major, I can't miss out on this action: The fallacy is that causation doesn't follow by logical implication but by empirical expectation (that is, it's an exercise in probability and statistics, not logical inference) ... textbook Hume. So a later FPS doesn't have to suck necessarily just because it's an FPS; but if all the empirical factors are in place that made all the others suck it's statistically very likely to suck (for Oddity, anyway) as a matter of experience. Not exactly what I'd consider a very killer argument here. At best we're talking about, like, a statistically very small chance (in Oddity's worldview, anyway) that *this* FPS will be the one in a million that breaks out of the cycle all the other past FPS's have fallen into and be amazing. If he's playing the percents, you can't blame him. Then again, it's a free demo, maybe a few minutes time is worth the 1:1 million chance?

I was just about to say... Actually, it was down for a few minutes, and then up again for a few mintues, and then just as I submitted a post it went down again. The last time was a lightening storm. Acc to Dave there isn't supposed to be anything special about this month, but still...

Because I kind of feel strongly about this, I'll respond to it. Of course a game needs things like the PC needs a modus operandi (what do I do?) and "rules" for controlling the PC and interfacing with the world to advance the M.O. (x-control predicably = y-world response & y-world response triggers z-whatever) ... so there are your "rules". But I think (I'm not speaking for Oddity here; this is what I think) that he rightfully put the emphasis on interactivity because the "control of a PC in a world" is really the core of what a game is, and the rules are just one (still necessary) means of bringing that about. But it's good to even perhaps overemphasize it because games today aren't taking advantage of it. Easy example, for most games the level of interactivity is pitifully deficient (competing even with notepad it seems): run forward; shoot whatever weapon is at hand; kill whatever runs at you; pick up health or weapon stuff. But there are so many richer and deeper ways a person can interact with a world or NPCs, and richer situations: helping an NPC with a problem or injury, finding a restaurant for dinner, trying to set up two friends on a date or break them up, sparking a street riot to pressure the city to change a policy or let someone free from prison, or stopping it ... so you need better ways for PCs and NPCs to interact, you need a social world that runs on its own steam going on that you can use or abuse (other people going to work, having lunch, having sex at night). I mean I'm making these up, so these aren't nec the best ideas, but you get my idea. That's how I think about why the emphasis in gaming should be on the "interactive" part (not that rules aren't important too, because of course they are). I guess I should make a token response for the topic at hand. My laptop unfortunately isn't going to run the demo at anything near good speed, and I can't do it on school computers, so still waiting to see all the action. Except for the kid-mutilation (which strikes me as a little gratuitous and unimaginative as well), it sounds promising.

I'm on Oddity's side here (I think; one can never be too sure) on game vs interactive. When cinema first started 100 years ago, it was considered sort of a fluke offshoot of photography, and had a few gimmicks at first, then started rehashing some basic stories... But as it's matured it's really been able to do more than *merely* entertain, going into artistic and humanity sort of directions like we think about cinema and theatre. PC Gaming has that potential. Of course I'm sure "games" will always exist and be as fun always as they are now. But I also look forward to more expressive productions. And what separates gaming as a medium of expression is interactivity, engaging with the narrative or experience rather than just passivly watching it. Also, since it's a creative medium, there's no reason it should stay content with a few themes played over and over (again, like we think about cinema), except insofar as they are universal human themes that never age. But anyway, there's so much potential here, we should start expecting more from PC games and not be held back (while of course saving a place for the really great games that will always be fun).

*psst* By default in T1/2, the "r" key drops an inventory item quietly down without throwing it. I hope I have not shaken your world with this revelation (or did you already know this?)

This is the first time like I've felt like I've had some where else to go when it's been down, though. I remember going to Ion Storm's Thief page once when TTLG was down and no one was around to even complain to.

This has got to be the most unfocused discussion of an update ever. :V

That's great news. I'm usually of the opinion that "more powerful > easier" (within reason, something shouldn't be made more complicated for complicated's sake) ... if someone is going to all the trouble to learn the editor, a little extra work to do more shouldn't be that much of a problem. Anyway, it makes me happy that so many old, familiar features are making an appearance (iirc TDS didn't have wheel locks or keypads at all did it? Did it have elevators?) Haha, I'm just full of misunderstandings today. I did think you were talking about the release of the original Thief, hence, Anno Furtim, Year of the Stealth (or Furis, Year of the Thief). When I said "I'm about 100% sure the case is wrong here", I meant the Latin case. I'm about 100% sure that Anno Furtim is *not* the way you would spell it in actual Latin, because I used the simple (accusitive?) case, and it should be the genitive case ("of the"), but at the time it totally slipped my mind how to do it in Latin. Let's see. A.D. is Anno Domini, so maybe it's Anno Furiti?? Edit: Oh, and 100 posts this makes! Makes me feel like an aspiring newbie all over again. Edit 2: Also, for the record, at first I thought I had inadvertantly blundered into "announcing" something to do with the "big surprise" we were supposed to get in May, which is why I thought my post had a hint about what it might be (hence the "yippee"). I'm actually sort of disappointed it was *just* about the internal DR release, now that we already all know about that. Although, of course, that's cool too. Just not as much subversive-potential.

Oh!

I interpreted "oh" as in answer to Springheel's comment that my review was actually "a review of the website update" and not whatever else he had in mind (as I interpreted the situation), hence my comment that Spar actually did have something else in mind, which granted it still just a guess of mine, but it sort of excited me anyway. As for "Can it become more official than being announced on the front page? :S", if you mean the update itself then, yeah, I sort of agree. I was just being, you know, extra contrite because I was given the impression that I made a mistake in "announcing" it here (I guess extra-officially??) and I like being a team-player and everybody's buddy and it doesn't hurt so much for me to apologize even though I'm a little confused what I'm apologizing for... But especially if it was stepping on NH's toes, since the last thing I want to do is bite the hand that feeds us (not to mention he's been cool throughout). If you mean the website update "officially announced" the "something else" then I have to admit I didn't catch it. For a moment I thought we'd get a little taste of DarkRadient itself by the look of the link, but it was just some screenshots.* But I was of course happy to see the little blurb we got here. I still really don't have a clue what "it" is ... although now I feel like I have some speculating material to work with. * Actually, if you've been paying attention, there was a link to an earlier version of DR posted on the public forums a while ago where we could have seen it in action ... but since I don't have Doom3 yet I couldn't see it myself.

Haha ... Well, the update was up on the main page. And I forgot that NH usually announces them on the public forum page; I sincerely wasn't trying to preempt anything. Maybe just being unmindful. Maybe it's because we see the update before we get to the forums, so it's like it sort of announces itself ... and I had ideas brewing in my mind that I wanted to talk about while I was thinking about them and wasn't thinking in terms waiting for an official thread -- it seriously wasn't a sudden urge to "announce" anything. In fact, I had this idea that the update had been up for some hours before I commented (since it's already midday for me), and I actually wondered why there wasn't a thread on it yet and was looking for it to comment there, but that could have been my misimpression. But yeah, totally sorry about that NH if you wanted to announce it. Really ... I don't like being a blundering gimp when I can help it. :angel: ... Actually, for the record, I'm confused a little. Is the update what you mean by the "release"? Because when you say "hasn't even happened yet?" ... I mean, the news update is already up on the main page. Does it not "happen" until it's officially announced?? Or is there something else coming, too, that I inadvertantly "announced"? I just want to be one of the good guys, you know. I should admit, though, that it did occur to me while writing that that it's been quite fun being a backseat driver critic on these boards, all the opportunity to say this and that about this and that feature, and none of the responsibility. Thinking that just makes me feel more guilty now. But no malice intended. --------------- Edit (because this was written while I was writing the above): Ah-ha!!! You *were* thinking about something else! And now I think I have an idea of what it is!! Yippee! (If it's actually what I think it is, hell, even if it isn't ... the fact that you guys are so protective makes me think it's going to be good whatever it is). Anyway, sort of funny there.

well, we can't have a public update without some helpful public commentary, so here goes: Where to start? We talked about noise arrow before here, didn't we? Does it work like classical style, it starts crackling when it lands, and when a guard sees it he instantly goes into investigation mode, but around the arrow. Or are there noticable differences? That's a really cool feature that will liven things up because I can't count the number of times I would run along side an AI knowing he'll never see me. Is there ever a time when he'll slow down, "have a feeling", stop, and turn a little to peek behind his back (not very often, but on rare occassion)? Now that would be a (potentially fun) surprise! If it were cued, you could see it coming and have to react fast. Lovely. Not much to add except good to see it. 1998: Anno Furtim, eh? (or Furis; I'm about 100% sure the case is wrong here). That would make 2006 year 9 A.F. This is awesome news. I love playing with S/R because it gives you so many options, so many things you can get going on in the background that give a level a life of its own. Does it essentially work like Dromed, or is the paradigm a little different? Good to hear. Did all the classic T2 objectives get in; any ones left out or new ones put in? Also, is it possible to trigger new objectives in-game? And is the system roughly the same, e.g., reversible vs. irreversible, visible vs. invisible, etc. Very nice. Important for those screenshots in threads to prove you "really did it". Is this the big surprise we've been waiting for, or just part of the normal front page update? [edited stuff out] Anyway, from what you've shown it looks intuitive and promising. Clean looking layout ... and, e.g., the menus have a familiar ring to them from dromed. Suppose I'll have to get used to thinking about "entities" instead of "objects". Are properties organized hierarchically like in dromed? I guess I should pick up Doom3Ed to get a sense of it. Anyway, nice update.

I like that point, and along those lines I have the exact opposite intuition from this: I think that, as ZB says, when a mission is not ghostable, which you can guarantee *will* happen ... *then* if the default is the ability to "not chooose any on loadout" or "in-game drop" essential tools, the mapper will have the real problem of leaving essentail equipment around (which I can see being unnatural in some cases, although it's been done in plenty of FMs and worked; it depends) or tag it undroppable and put it in loadout, and THAT will be the bright neon sign. But if the default is T2 style, can't drop core equipment in loadout or in game (just like you can't drop the ability to jump or mantle, or choose not to have it before the game starts), then the player doesn't know whether he needs it or not. It's just part of the background functionality of the game, again like jumping and mantling. Having the situation like T2 style is the way to AVOID the neon-sign phenomenon in non-ghostable cases (which seem to me will be the majority), it seems to me. But I'm not so invested in it ... because I think players will quickly learn how TDM gameplay is distinctive and there will be a learning curve whichever way is chosen, so practically it may not be as big a problem after time as it may be at first.

Great news. Flowing water can have some great gameplay functions ... also a good way to move someone through space without it feeling like you're actually moving them.

Well, MUDs are different from IF like Zork, of course, because they are multi-user, and have top-down ascii graphics. (I love IF, too, but just to distinguish the two). The text-based MUDs I know (from 10 years ago) are more like ultima 1 if you remember it. It's all ascii art, the dungeon walls are like "I" and and the PC ("*") and monsters ("M") and other users and items, etc. You use the keyboard to move around, and there are special keys to do special commands, like rest, cast a spell, attack monster, get item, etc. And since there are other people in the dugeon at the same time, you can also talk to them, and interact in other ways, trading, buying and selling items. And as you advance through levels, there's more you can do ... so in a lot of them you see some level 90 wizards just zipping through the whole MUD looking for hapless newbies to harass. But all in all, they are fun to run through for a quick jaunt ... sort of like WoW unplugged.

Not too long ago I finally discovered the world of C64 emulation and finally got to play some games I literally hadn't seen in well over a decade. I was struck how much they still have their magic, and found it quite natural to fall back into playing some of my old favorites.

I can see the PC being made visible, but it should be noticably less, that is, by quite a notable factor. The way I think about it ... the player should recognizably feel less exposed than just strafing/creeping a bit to the side and back, otherwise what's even the advantage of leaning at all - s/he may as well just walk into the hallway a bit and back. But I have some trust, esp if you playtest it enough, that you guys will get it right. And for the record, I liked how Darkengine kept me dark when leaning, too. It really made me love the leaning function as something that was really being my friend in the game, smudging reality for my benefit, maybe ... so I liked to use it all the time, because that situation comes up all the time.

Interactive Fiction isn't everyone's cup of tea, but it's worth trying out some of the top ranked games just to get a feel for how interactivity and good story-telling can go hand in hand, if you've never tried them. (Everything you need to do it you can get from here.) I live for the day when FPS's can do as good a job integrating the two; DX is the only one that even approached it, but is still way off from the potential.

Yeah, such great atmosphere ... really credible as a gargantuan, buried, unholy crypt. I'd have said I was sold on the game when I entered the main chamber ... but really, they had me at "Inside at last..." The most magical level remains for me Constantine's mansion. RTC got a bit spoiled since I didn't actually (fairly) finish it first time through. But geez that level had me absolutely petrified time after time, when I'd feel heroic for simply dashing into the next room!

The TTLG thread on Randy's interview is also good (link), and has the benefit of an appearance by Randy himself to explain himself a little more. Also, note that the second half of the interview just came out yesterday (link). It doesn't talk much about the Thief series, but some good discussion on the future of gaming, or at least the direction he'd like to see it go ... more philosophical.

Well, apparently you've got the job, because you already have "beta mapper" in your profile. Congrats on joining the team.

Back in the day I liked old school RPGs ... the Ultima Series, the Bard's Tale series, Wasteland ... and IF. Anything that could tell a really good story and make me part of it in the game.

Well, as long as you keep things in perspective. The Dark Project is widely held to be the best in the series, the most "magical" in the sense of everything coming together, gameplay, story, atmosphere, level design, etc. This is how Randy -- a level designer on all three, lead designer in T2 and project head of T3 -- recently summed the three up, admitting that the next two never matched that level in his own estimation, and I and lots of people agree. There was some undead, but no monsters, and the sneaking aspect is largely the same for undead as guards, I think. Anyway, as for "time", if you have time for *anything* Thief related, you should spend that time playing the Dark Project before anything else. Seriously, I don't think I'm exaggerating when I say that I can't think of anything else in the entire Thief oerve that out-does it taken as a whole package. It's the standard, the benchmark against which everything afterwards is graded.

Try flipping through TTLG's member list! (although granted they let you order by post count. Can you not do that here?)