[Newbie DarkRadiant Questions]

@MirceaKitsuneJust a thought, did you add "objective_ent" "1" property to your NPC? I followed this article https://wiki.thedarkmod.com/index.php?title=Objectives_Editor, the "An Objective to place an object in a Certain Location" part specifically, and got it to work. A very simple setup, just two rooms, one of which was covered by the objective_location clip brush, and then just pestered the AI from the starting room to the other, and it seemed to work no problem.

[Newbie DarkRadiant Questions]

35 minutes ago, MirceaKitsune said:

Spiders shouldn't be triggering a type reserved for humans, nor should werebeasts and even undead I'd imagine.

Yeah, I wouldn't know how this type business is supposed to work. Many articles refer to "AI type", but I couldn't find a specific one just for that topic. This one https://wiki.thedarkmod.com/index.php?title=AI_Relations_(Editing) uses type and team interchangeably, which is odd since those are distinct spawnargs. So a human guard might be of team 2, but also type 0 I guess? Would like to see a list of all the AI and their types, if such a thing even exists.

[Newbie DarkRadiant Questions]

I got so curious about that objective not working that I jumped in to DR to try it myself. I used two AI, a human and a spider. "Do NOT kill 1 AI of type 0" does indeed work on humans, but it apparently also triggers on spiders.

That said, I tried setting the "type" spawnarg on both AI, as @joebarnin (and @Destined) suggested above (for example, type 1 for human, type 2 for spider) and adjusted the objective to only fail if type 1 was killed. This worked perfectly. 

I can recall at least one mission that would fail the "no kill" objective even when killing spiders, so I guess the author forgot to make this distinction.

 

[Free games]

Those three tend to be really cheap every sale anyway, but yeah, recommended. Haven't played Hong Kong yet, but quite enjoyed the other two, even though it's definitely not a genre I have much interest in. Carried by the setting, the fantasy-infused cyberpunk is very alluring.

[Ghosting the Dark Mod]

I actually never played A New Job when I was new to the game, I started just before 2.05. I played it in the latter half of 2018, but by that point I don't know how I reacted to that voice over. Just checked it again, and I don't have any recollection of even playing the damn mission, let alone hearing that remark.

In any case, definitely a mechanic any ghoster would be glad to be aware of, as I'd imagine you'd want every advantage.

[Ghosting the Dark Mod]

55 minutes ago, Klatremus said:

They pivot their heads randomly and when they do, it actually changes their viewing angle. So you could be lucky sneaking through a room if the guard doesnt turn his head. This never happens in Thief.

Yeah, it's always troll when a guard starts walking away, but with his face turned to where you happen to be hiding, so have to wait for him to actually look elsewhere.

Another thing you may or may not be aware of, the guard's headwear impacts their vision. A guard with a hood or an eyepatch will have a harder time catching stuff in their peripheral vision, as opposed to a guard without. I only learned of this via a mapping tutorial; don't think it's mentioned anywhere, couldn't even find anything about it on the wiki. But since it was Springheel who said it, it must be true.

[So, what are you working on right now?]

9 minutes ago, MirceaKitsune said:

Just one sneak peak from mine for the time being.

"I think you meant sneak peek".

I wonder if that twitter account still exists.

And whatever this compound is looks baller. Very imposing.

[Newbie DarkRadiant Questions]

5 hours ago, JackFarmer said:

and that would lead to a lot of frustration when trying to ghost the mission.

I suppose you could just have more ways in the environment to circumvent the psychotic characters. Would be tougher if used in really tight areas, but then it's a map design conundrum. Would be interesting to try out a level with such AI.

I wonder how many mappers even make a conscious effort to support ghosting. It's not an aspect that matters to me, since I don't ghost unless I'm forced to, but it's something I thought about when watching some of these mapping tutorials.

[[ 2.10 ] New Frob Shader]

5 hours ago, OrbWeaver said:

I haven't seen any suggestions that NPCs specifically will have their own colour.

I thought I had gone insane and made it up, but there was this at least.

On 5/31/2021 at 11:19 PM, MirceaKitsune said:

I wonder though if maybe the color should depend on the type of entity being frobbed. Like green for doors, gold for loot, blue for in-world decorations you can move around, etc.

I guess when I saw the blue-tinted NPCs and the gold-tinted loot, I figured that was the direction this was going. But if not, then nevermind. And I agree, it would be pointless. If it'll be just between loot and other stuff, getting to color customize sounds good.

[[ 2.10 ] New Frob Shader]

I was wondering. If the new shader will be this rainbow color-coded thing, are there any plans for it to be customizable, beyond "on/off"? After seeing the few screenshots, I would be interested in trying out the new one for loot, but the blue-tint for NPCs is completely unnecessary, and I'd wager it would most likely be the same for other objects.

By customizable, I was thinking something like:

Use color coded frob shader for

• Everything [  ]
  • Loot [ X ]
  • NPCs [  ]
  • Random Objects [  ]

I suppose one could have more versions of the shader, so the player might get to choose from the current one, something in between (like stronger white outline for everything) and the extreme version with the color coding.

[Fan Mission: In Danger of Judgment (2019/11/15)]

1 hour ago, krrg said:

By the way, this isn't an attack on anyone that disliked my mission or thought it could be improved; just realize that the cost of admission was free.

Just fyi, this particular user you're responding to doesn't seem to be much interested in what I would call constructive criticism, so I wouldn't sweat it. See below comment of his on another mission.

Other than that, as I've mentioned elsewhere, I definitely have a lot of respect for any mapper that releases anything. I say that as an expert mapper that is halfway through the beginner tutorial.

[Any way to turn off menu music entirely?]

I sort of get that, especially since you probably usually only hear the first 20 seconds or so over and over, but personally I really enjoy the menu theme. Fits the mood and is quite appealing in its own right.

Then again, I enjoy extreme repetition in music, if done right.

[[ 2.10 ] New Frob Shader]

Now I have to apologize to the mods, because it seems I'll keep going with this off-topic.

You are clearly offended. That's fine, but if you really plan on making ground on a collaborative process like TDM, you should expect there to be those that won't just let people like you walk all over them.

Every single argument you posted I've replied to, other than ones that relate to your anecdotal RL experiences. I've been very respectful while doing so. I've even given concessions (such as not deeming junk a necessity for immersive sims - as there are many immersive sims). If there are any specific things I've missed, I am sorry, feel free to point them out. On the contrary, when I bring up something that contradicts you (Dishonored, while it doesn't have junk, it does have customizable UI stuff like this highlighting thing), you ignore it completely.

I'm not using any "tricks". I simply got caught in a discussion on a game I love. On an OPTIONAL feature that you deem will be a massive hindrance. It won't. People have already agreed on some of the points I've made and shared their own views that support my comments. So I believe what I've written makes sense, and is relevant.

The only person wasting your time is yourself. You could've decided, from the first "irrelevant" point I made, to ignore me, but you didn't. Neither did you ignore anyone else, you just wanted to keep pushing your view. Which is awesome, we need to have back-and-forths like this. But get off your damn high-horse, would you? You can look down your nose at me, because you've been contributing to the mod for a while now, or for whatever other reason you make up, but don't just dismiss my, or others, legitimate points, because of completely bizarre reasons like "I'm tired" or "it's a waste of time". Get off the forums, do your thing and prove me wrong if I'm such a nuisance.

And seeing how you lasted all of 20 minutes with "being done with me", I don't expect you to stay away from this one either.

[[ 2.10 ] New Frob Shader]

Well off with you then, your Lordship. Don't let us peasants stand in your way.

But honestly, seeing how much time you've spent on this topic alone, I doubt it's as much of a case of "I have nothing more to say", as it is "I am always right and everyone else should just accept it".

That said, I have no particular beef with you other than that. If you help the mod to be better in the future, I can only benefit from it. The assets of yours I've already seen have been really nice. But you won't have things go your way all the time. Getting offended over nothing won't help your cause.

EDIT: Also, calling a respectful discussion (argument if you will) a "waste of time" because your feelings are hurt, should definitely give pause to anyone looking to collaborate with your ideas in the future. I sure hope, for your sake, you didn't deem it a waste because I shared opinions that others in the forum also have (based on some of the reactions I've gotten) that just don't align with yours.

[[ 2.10 ] New Frob Shader]

1 hour ago, peter_spy said:

Not all of them, but using them more selectively. Making all 20 bottles on the shelf interactive, just because you can do that in real life, isn't meaningful gameplay. 

Even if mappers of the future were to take this to heart, it doesn't change the 100+ missions that already exist. And since you're so high on mappers' intent being respected, surely you wouldn't go and change their mission design after the fact? Hence why this new shader is even being discussed.

1 hour ago, peter_spy said:

Nope. If you take a look at both old and new im-sims, it's not like each and every object is interactive. Both Dishonored games and new Prey have tons of static geometry, only stuff that supports the gameplay in a fairly meaningful way is interactive.

I'm willing to give up on the immersive-sims argument, because that term encompasses so many different types of games (tbh I don't even know what it means at this point). But as I've brought up, junk has a gameplay-element to it in TDM. In games like Dishonored and Prey, where you are a literal god of combat, you'd have very little use for it.

But then again, Dishonored games also support this customizable object highlighting, even though it's even less necessary than in TDM. They even have the in-your-face -option on by default.

Finally

On 6/3/2021 at 6:41 PM, peter_spy said:

Now please leave me out of the further discussion, (...) I don't have anything more to say.

[[ 2.10 ] New Frob Shader]

11 minutes ago, peter_spy said:

Now please leave me out of the further discussion, I'm super tired as I spent most of my free day on it. I don't have anything more to say.

You have by far the most comments in this thread. If you're gonna feel so strongly about something, you should expect to be questioned by many people. Whether you want to partake or not, is up to you. I can understand being bothered by a doorbell or a ringing phone, not by a forum.

And talk about wasting your time on this discussion, I'm sitting here arguing for a feature I don't even need. At least it was on company time.

[[ 2.10 ] New Frob Shader]

23 minutes ago, peter_spy said:

On the contrary, it's extremely relevant, because it's how other games deal with this, and TDM doesn't exist in a bubble. People playing TDM don't live under the rock, they play other games too, so they can carry over their expectations just fine.

Right, expectations such as having customizable UI elements. Maybe an object highlight that can be aggressive or more muted?

Talk about having your cake and eating it too,

[[ 2.10 ] New Frob Shader]

28 minutes ago, peter_spy said:

It's funny, because with what I just described you'd essentially have "my thief character knows what to pick up" thing, but being a fully intentional effort from designer, and without making significant changes to anything else.

I mean, unless you plan on creating every mission and asset in the future, or recreating every previous one, whatever you're describing is kind of irrelevant.

 

[[ 2.10 ] New Frob Shader]

9 minutes ago, peter_spy said:

You can do the same in TDM: just place static models, or turn off frob for junk models, so they'll react to physics and weapon hits without being pickable.

Correct, but as I've stated, I wouldn't be as happy with that, like you aren't with the new shader. Can't please everyone, no matter how good your intentions are.

9 minutes ago, peter_spy said:

First off, TDM doesn't look that modern in comparison to other games.

It doesn't, but it looks significantly more modern than its closest comparables, Thief 1&2.

[[ 2.10 ] New Frob Shader]

59 minutes ago, peter_spy said:

These small moments of uncertainty and risk vs reward planning are also part of a bigger theme, which Thief series always had, namely the idea of doing all kinds of stuff in a place that that you're not supposed to be in, which is both uncertain/scary and exciting.

I agree, but Thief 1/2 have a much simpler graphical representation, so it really is easy to tell the loot apart from junk most all of the time. And as others have pointed out, I don't consider the act of frobbing an object to be one of the highlights of these games. And if I value it to that degree, I just turn the shader off as soon as possible; while playing Dishonored, I made the UI as minimalistic as possible, because it was more immersive that way.

Just to make it clear, the only issue I consistently run into with the current shader are the paintings, where I just end up running up to each and clicking to see which is loot. It's not big enough deal for me to have ever complained about, and certainly not big enough to warrant this shader change. I reckon I won't even use the new one, because 99% of the time it isn't something I need. The other loot issues I've had are due to mappers using junk as loot, in which case no shader would help, no matter how ridiculously overblown, as I wouldn't even bother highlighting them. I definitely see where you're coming from with your arguments and agree in essence. I would love a graphically impressive immersive sim that is designed to such perfection where I don't have any UI elements at all, but one that still allows for freedom of tinkering with stuff ala Thief and TDM.

That said, we're clearly not there with TDM. As such, I don't see an issue with providing an option that makes it more enjoyable for people to enjoy the existing catalogue. Nor do I believe it'll become a crutch for future mappers either; I would like to believe that those who put forth the effort of making maps, will put their best foot forward, regardless of what the UI might offer to the player.

34 minutes ago, peter_spy said:

I believe there's no symmetry here. I think addressing problems at its source (asset design) would be a better option. As I mentioned, there are talks underway, and from what I've seen in DR viewers, there aren't that many core loot models there; quite a few are just variants of one model. So a rework project might be more feasible than you think.

I mean, I won't have a say on that, I'm not one of the developers. Some of the devs in this very thread seem to have thought otherwise. I'll be happy with anything that improves the game, and I don't see the new shader as something that noticeably compromises its future.

1 hour ago, peter_spy said:

I'd have to post recommended frob shader settings, once I find values that I like. The list already includes stuff like bloom and 64-bit color, and the mission is optimized for stencil shadows + soft shadow quality set to low. It will probably work fine on higher settings and shadowmaps, but this is the setting I find most consistent, performance analysis-wise. I also have a draft of TDM menu rework for the mission, so I need guis to be editable, although this might be too time-consuming to be taken as far as I'd like to. It might end with just custom replacements for current low res backgrounds and effects.

I see. Well I hope you find some solution that works out for you, although chasing absolute perfection down to the settings values can undoubtedly get exhausting.

[[ 2.10 ] New Frob Shader]

2 hours ago, peter_spy said:

But you're not improving anything per se with it, you're obfuscating bad design with an interface helper.

Kind of, but that's what the current frob shader already does. I get the feeling you would rather not have one at all, which is fair enough, but probably not going to happen. So the question remains, do we leave the current one that causes confusion, or enhance it and alleviate any immersion breaking qualities that may arise by making it optional. My choice would be the latter.

As far as turning people brain-dead, I really don't see it. People still have to walk up to your objects to frob them; the only thing the new shader would do is help in fringe scenarios. Like paintings in ample light.

20 minutes ago, peter_spy said:

It sure can, and I actually have a recent experience with that, as I've been playing Nier: Automata lately. It was like "Wait a minute, I'm being manipulated here: this absolutely gorgeous music feels elevating and emotional, but the actual gameplay is fairly meh." Seems like they had a great composer, but not so great quest designers. Well, at least boss fights were awesome. So you risk a similar sentiment, plus you'll have to do several people's work yourself.

I see, interesting. I agree that the soundtrack is incredible, but I also enjoyed the story and the gameplay. Even if it wasn't my usual style, I played it on a whim based on a recommendation that was, in-hindsight, done for the wrong reasons.

[[ 2.10 ] New Frob Shader]

2 hours ago, peter_spy said:

Exactly, and finding a way to do it is very important aspect too. In your example, you're introducing a huge potential point of failure between you and making music. This will be time-consuming as well, and it's a time you could spend on just making music or learning how to do it better. 

At the end of the day, making music and/or making maps would be something for me to fill my free time with to express my creativity. None of it is easy, you're right about that, and you always take a risk when you release anything to the wild. Even in the music making business alone, I fairly often read (or think) stuff like "maybe this band should just focus on X, instead of trying to do X and Y".

2 hours ago, peter_spy said:

If your music is great, and the map turns out not so, it will distract people from the former. 

Hey now, it might do the opposite. "Man this mission is terrible, but the music sure is great".

2 hours ago, peter_spy said:

Not to mention that there are more efficient ways to learn how to write score for video games. You can team up with a mapper and create music for their work. You can record a play-through of your favorite game with bg music off and try to score it. Or you can just take a playthrough from YT and mute it, if you can't be bothered with recording that stuff yourself.

No doubt there are more efficient ways, but if you're really set on a particular creative vision, outside of making your own game from scratch, a fan mission might be the next best thing. Although the "mute and re-score" sounds pretty fun.

Unless we move to a system where every new mission has to be approved by a committee, you will continue to receive ones that suck or ones that may have been created for all the wrong reasons, that's just how it is. And more importantly, the current catalogue is already huge. As Destined pointed out, if we can help these rougher works a little, I don't see the new frob shader as an outrageous compromise.

I do wonder, you mentioned a "list of things", that would make forking 2.08 a better alternative. Considering the new frob shader isn't out yet, what other things do you currently find detrimental to this degree?

[[ 2.10 ] New Frob Shader]

2 hours ago, peter_spy said:

And perhaps, if you just want to tell a story, why not focus on writing something instead of creating a map?

From Springheel's Speed Build Challenge, final episode.

Quote

I really recommend you try (mapping). It's a very rewarding creative process, there is something special about getting to walk around inside an environment that you created, that is a special kind of thrill that I don't really get in a lot of the other kinds of art that I do.

- Springheel

Purely anecdotally, like 90% of the reason why I've toyed with creating a mission, is so that I could make my own background music for it. Just to stroke my own ego as a music hobbyist. Maybe the mission would be awful, but the idea of it all sounds pretty fun. Some musicians could specifically want to make video game music, and find that creating a TDM map is their best option.

It's about having an idea or a passion, and finding a medium to express it in.

[Fan Mission: The Hare in the Snare, Part 1]

Oh, well I may have made a mental error while writing my original post. Did not go back to check, so it's very possible my room assessment was wrong.

[Fan Mission: The Hare in the Snare, Part 1]

I believe so.