[Restricting saves in creative ways]

I am 100% on board with optional bonus challenges (mutators) you can activate before launching an FM. Could be a nice project for me for 2.13.

As posted in the "Hazard Pay" thread, my idea for a save restriction mutator is that you pay for each save with some resource like a water arrow or a health potion. Something that hurts, to make players who seek the tension think twice about saving.

Another mutator idea was "Ghost", i.e., mission fails as soon as stealth score turns non-zero and blackjacking is disabled. I wonder why everybody jumped on the save restriction topic, instead of this mutator, which would be really useful for quite a few players, wouldn't it?

[Fan Mission : Hazard Pay by Kingsal 01/27/22]

4 hours ago, snatcher said:

No need to create a new thread, @MirceaKitsune. Snatcher already posted one.

[Fan Mission : Hazard Pay by Kingsal 01/27/22]

So, I've got a confession to make: Up until recently, I hadn't really played a full FM in quite some time as I only did the occasional playtesting. I am currently trying to catch up and boy did I miss some gems! This FM is one of them and easily one of my all-time favorites. The save-system on expert combined with the incredible athmosphere of your mission created a tension I haven't felt in a Thief-style game in a long, long time. Thank you, thank you, thank you and bravo @kingsal. TDM and its mappers have really come a long way, competing high up there with commercial productions.

Your FM inspired me in two ways:

1. At one point, I died due to my character not jumping off a slope, eventhough I felt like I pressed jump at the right time. I think everybody of us knows this issue and you always have this kind of in the back of your head that you don't jump when the ground is not perfectly even. This failed jump was of course very annoying due to the saving constraints, so I instantly started thinking how we could solve this. There's a technique known primarily from platformers but also from FPS like Doom Eternal, and that technique is called "Coyote Time". It allows the player to jump for some short timespan after leaving a platform. We should maybe explore something similar for TDM, to make jumping off slopes more reliable. We have to be careful to not allow the player to cross further distances this way of course.
2. I loved the save restriction and the tension it create so much, that I want more of it. I started to brainstorm and remembered the optional game mutators from Unreal back in the day. These mutators allowed you to enable extra challenges or modified physics etc. for your game. Coming back to the save restriction, a respective mutator for TDM could be that each savegame costs some resource. Some resource that hurts, like a water arrow or a health potion, to make the player think twice about saving. A mutator like that would honestly be my default play-setting, I think. Other obvious mutators could be "Ghost" (missions fails as soon as the stealth score is non-zero and blackjacking is disabled), "Ironman" (no saves), "Strong Enemies" (enemies hit harder, have more health).

I shall follow up on both of these points soon.

[Prey 2017 why wobbly legs? [and general comments]]

4 hours ago, stgatilov said:

Did System Shock allow dragging bodies BTW? Dragging bodies even feels equally useless in TDM and Prey.

My brother played System shock 2 but I did not.
But my vague memory says Prey is a game of the very same kind.

Prey is much less stealth focused than TDM, so hiding bodies serves much less of a purpose. Much like System Shock actually.

By the way, you should also give the System Shock 1 Remake a shot. While its probably best enjoyed, if you already played the original, it's still a great game anyway.

[Fan Mission: The Spider and the Finch, by grodenglaive]

Congratuliations on the release and what incredible quality for a first-timer. The story was really neat and felt very authentic. Gameplay-wise, I also had a lot of fun, although it got really messy at times. You see, I like to play with the rule to only reload when I am dead, so I am forced to play through my mistakes, which can be really fun. A mistake in this mission often meant, that almost all the guards got alerted because a huge portion of the mansion is connected without any doors. And with so many guards, trouble often snowballed, which made this mission pretty difficult. So many guards in one spot also very frequently lead to AI misbehavior like continuously running into a wall etc. For your future missions (hoping there weill be more), I would suggest to split up areas more so that not so many guards come flocking on you on a single mistake.

[[Feature Proposal] Frob to Use World Item]

1 minute ago, wesp5 said:

That has been said before but I don't understand it. Isn't this a simple "if short-frob then do x elif long-frob do y" situation?

The hold-type-grabber means that you hold the mouse button to drag an entity and when you release, you drop the entity. That of course doesn't work on a short-press frob, as pressing shortly is the opposity of holding down the frob button for as long as you wish to drag an entity, i.e., it is mechanically impossible. 

That's why I said that @snatcherprobably rather meant the toggle-type-grabber on short-press, i.e., press frob once to grab an entity, press frob again to release the entity (traditional TDM style). And this I'd feel uncomfortable to go through with as explained in my previous two comments.

[[Feature Proposal] Frob to Use World Item]

2 minutes ago, snatcher said:

Thanks.

Can you prototype an extension of your extension (option 2) with the following change?

Entity type	Short Press	Long Press
Bodies	Hold-Grabber	Shoulder/Unshoulder

Sorry, but that is mechanically impossible. ^^ 

I am going to assume that you didn't mean the Hold-Grabber, but the Toggle-Grabber on Short Press. To that, I would like to raise two comments:

1. There has already been a huge discussion about this topic that I didn't partake in. I only see the result of this discussion, which is the current implementation, and I wouldn't feel comfortable to just ignore this and do something else.
2. What you are asking for is not a simple extension, but a different code-path, which makes things messy, and the frob-code is already quite messy as it is.

I understand where you are coming from, but please understand that I don't feel comfortable to go through with it. Also, our lead dev also has a say in this and I doubt he will be happy to open up more code-paths.

You still have the original control scheme to fall back on, if it is so important to you to have the Toggle-Grabber on short press.

[Free games]

On 11/21/2023 at 4:22 PM, jaxa said:

Styx: Shards of Darkness 100% off on GOG, less than 8 hours left

https://www.gog.com/en/game/styx_shards_of_darkness
https://www.gog.com/giveaway/claim

It's supposedly a stealth game but the two trailers are cinematic.

The second Styx game is a very nice Stealth game, very similar to Thief actually (except that it's third person) and much better than the first title. I hope anyone got this game. If not, it is still on 85% sale right now.

[[Feature Proposal] Frob to Use World Item]

Kinda feels like I threw a live grenade into a dung pit by necroing this thread.

Anyway, it seems like there is some agreement with my current work on both sides of the pit, as it will make the control scheme a bit more consistent, while leaving the general new control scheme intact. I have a working prototype that implements the following table. Contrary to the previous table, hold-type-grabber for loot and tools is not possible, as the long-press frob is already tied to multiloot (pickup multiple items successively without releasing the frob button). This extension is enabled via cvar, i.e., completely optional.

19 hours ago, STiFU said:

Entity type	Short Press	Long Press
Junk	Toggle-Grabber	Hold-Grabber
Food	Toggle-Grabber	Eat
Food remains	Toggle-Grabber	Hold-Grabber
Loot	Pick-up	Hold-GrabberMultiloot
Bodies	Shoulder	Hold-Grabber
Lanterns	Toggle-Grabber	Extinguish / Light
Lit Candles	Toggle-Grabber	Extinguish
Unlit Candles	Toggle-Grabber	Hold-Grabber
Tools	Inventory	Hold-GrabberMultiloot

 

[[Feature Proposal] Frob to Use World Item]

1 hour ago, Amadeus said:

I'm not gonna write a whole wall of text, because the shouldering topic has been done to death, but I will remind everyone of the poll taken on this subject. Respect the poll:

 

Well, I hate to be that guy, but as a researcher who has done tons of subjective tests with big subject groups, I would like to jokingly comment that the used test procedure does not allow the conclusion that people prefer short press frob for shouldering.  What we can conclude from this poll is that people prefer short press frob for shouldering as well as various other actions AND long press frob for alternative actions in favor of short press frob for various actions as well as double-press frob for alternative actions including shouldering. This is the classic error of modifying too many determining factors between test cases and attributing the results to only one of the determining factors.  

However, I don't question that there is strong agreement with making shouldering the primary / short-press frob action. This has been criticism of TDM for a long time. We've had people coming to the forum asking for shouldering over and over again. So I concur to change this and set it as the new default even.

[[Feature Proposal] Frob to Use World Item]

15 hours ago, STiFU said:

Entity type	Short Press	Long Press
Junk	Toggle-Grabber	Hold-Grabber
Food	Toggle-Grabber	Eat
Loot	Pick-up	Hold-Grabber??
Bodies	Shoulder	Hold-Grabber
Lights	Toggle-Grabber	Exstinguish
Tools	Inventory	Hold-Grabber

I quickly hacked this in yesterday evening and it actually worked quite well. Having the option to both toggle-type-grab and hold-type-grab junk objects is a nice quality of life feature to me. It actually worked for most loot and inventory items in the training mission as well, so that's also pretty cool. However, what isn't so cool is that food remains, unlit candles or candleholders (that never even saw a candle) are not treated as junk objects so the hold-type-grabber ist not applied. This requires some more coding logic, but should be fairly doable. So basically, above table would have to be altered in the following way. With this adjustment, long press would always execute a special action first and would then consistently degrade to hold-type-grabber.

Entity type	Short Press	Long Press
Junk	Toggle-Grabber	Hold-Grabber
Food	Toggle-Grabber	Eat
Food remains	Toggle-Grabber	Hold-Grabber
Loot	Pick-up	Hold-Grabber
Bodies	Shoulder	Hold-Grabber
Lanterns	Toggle-Grabber	Extinguish / Light
Lit Candles	Toggle-Grabber	Extinguish
Unlit Candles	Toggle-Grabber	Hold-Grabber
Tools	Inventory	Hold-Grabber

 

[[Feature Proposal] Frob to Use World Item]

56 minutes ago, wesp5 said:

In my opinion this is still a complete mess, just imagine to show this table to new TDM players! If this is only about making new players recognize that bodies can be shouldered, why not add a hint to the body name once it is frobbed? Snatcher already added the name of the body being displayed then and I also included this in my patch. Like "Corpse (Use or long frob to shoulder)" and "Candle (Use or long frob to extinguish)" and "Food (Use or long frob to eat)". Loot and tools go automatically into inventory so there is nothing needed there, as well as for junk which has no alternative action anyway.

I agree that this would solve many problems TDM has for new players, especially with our new mildly inconsistent control scheme, but it goes against the design philosphy of TDM, which is, to be as immersive as possible with as little HUD as possible.

[[Feature Proposal] Frob to Use World Item]

9 minutes ago, Daft Mugi said:

Players might hold Junk while moving it and be surprised when it is suddenly dropped on frob release, because there is no way the player can know which mode they are in.

Granted, that might happen to a player once, but then the player will have learned that there are two types of grabber-interactions, the toggle-type which he/she knows from Lights and Food, and the hold-type which he/she knows from bodies.

Anyway, there is no harm in trying this, right? Even if we just end up hiding it behind a disabled cvar for the people who like it.

 

[[Feature Proposal] Frob to Use World Item]

1 hour ago, Wellingtoncrab said:

Unless I am missing something the only really difference in this table vs the current implementation would be inverting the shoulder/grabber behavior for bodies (I guess it also removes the fall back on long press to do the default action on things like junk - not sure if it is actually preferable for some reason to just do nothing in these cases).

Switching the body interaction to shoulder on frob is one of the foundational elements of this change and judging by the polling information is supported by a majority of players. The reasons for this change are well articulated in this thread, but the short version is that this has been confusing new players for years who actually think there is no shouldering mechanic in the game at all.

Thats the first thing the game shows them is fine manipulation of bodies via the dragging mechanic, and they must learn to use an unfamiliar key combination to actually carry one. This is only described in a easy to miss readable in the training mission. I am myself only learned of this mechanic after playing several missions and by accident. You can read accounts of players literally giving on the game elsewhere in this thread. I imagine they would potentially support this change as well.

Which is the more common action a player must undertake in the game - shouldering a body or manipulating limps and slowly dragging it around?

So if that is the only element of the implementation which is “inconsistent” (again I don’t think this is actually important - shouldering is the primary interaction with bodies in almost every other similar game and this confuses no one) then I think it’s a pretty small tradeoff for a pretty big pay off.

Thanks for summarizing the most relevant arguments. Saved me from reading this monster of a thread in its whole.  

It is obvious that a lot of thought from a lot of smart people has already gone into this. Still, it kind of rubs me the wrong way that the grabber-interaction with bodies is so fundamentally different than the rest and it frequently annoys me that I can't hold-type-grab junk objects as well. So maybe, to catch two flies with one stone, the hold-type-grabber-interaction just needs to be added to a few more entity types. In other words, stick to the frobbing-rules you guys developed in this thread, but additionally add hold-type-grabber-interaction to Junk and Tools, and if possible, Loot as well.

Entity type	Short Press	Long Press
Junk	Toggle-Grabber	Hold-Grabber
Food	Toggle-Grabber	Eat
Loot	Pick-up	Hold-Grabber??
Bodies	Shoulder	Hold-Grabber
Lights	Toggle-Grabber	Exstinguish
Tools	Inventory	Hold-Grabber

 

(Highlighted interactions in the table differ from the new control scheme)

[[Feature Proposal] Frob to Use World Item]

Thanks for searching those quotes. Maybe @Daft Mugi can clarify, but it seems to me that he was arguing from the standpoint to keep the hold-type-grabber as an option in the code, whereas I propose to either drop it entirely or to embrace it fully for all entity types. Both options should be fairly straight-forward to implement, because there is no mixture of different grabber-control styles anymore, contrary to the current situation.

[[Feature Proposal] Frob to Use World Item]

9 minutes ago, datiswous said:

I read it's not actually that easy to implement in code. But you're a dev so maybe you disagree.

I think some things might have gotten mixed up there in the discussion and some implementation specific things have also changed since DM started with this project. It should be fairly easy to implement now. Especially, because it'd be consistent with the original control scheme.

[[Feature Proposal] Frob to Use World Item]

4 hours ago, Wellingtoncrab said:

I will say It seemed like it was quite difficult to get this change as it is into the game, so while I think anything can be improved I am not sure anyone wants to go through another 10 pages, polls, etc. So I hope I don’t sound short or dismissive, it’s really not my intention, it’s just been a very long thread.

I get that and full disclosure: I did not read the full thread, it's just too much!  I was absent in recent months, so I missed all of this.

4 hours ago, Wellingtoncrab said:

I will say if an object is frob highlighted, ie subject to an interaction prompt, if frobbing it then does not do anything or provide any feedback the game immediately feels very strange and broken. I do not think it is good a idea to have objects which can only be interacted with via long press.

That makes a lot of sense. Although, to solve this, one could communicate via audio cue ("uh uh") that no use-type-interaction is available for that entity.

Anyway, there is an incredibly easy way to solve the inconsistency while staying true to the original control scheme and that is to simply swap shouldering and grabber.

Entity type	Short Press	Long Press	...Release Button
Junk	Grabber	Nothing	Nothing
Food	Grabber	Eat	Nothing
Loot	Pick-up	Nothing	Nothing
Bodies	Grabber	Shoulder	Nothing
Lights	Grabber	Exstinguish	Nothing
Tools	Inventory	Nothing	Nothing

This way, every interaction that was originally "frob + use" (shouldering, eat, exstinguish) will the become long-press-frob. So, the long-press simply becomes a shorthand for special action, nice and clean. While I do love the hold-type-grabber to death, I'd be willing to sacrifice it for a consistent control-scheme. (@stgatilov @Daft Mugi)

Right now, we have this weird mixture of hold-type- and toggle-type-grabber that I guarantee you, will confuse new players (and streamers). I say, either fully embrace the lovely new hold-type-grabber (which I am still all for) or drop it completely.

[[Feature Proposal] Frob to Use World Item]

Hi everyone, I know I am pretty late to the party, but I have been doing some playtesting of this feature and I am honestly loving the way bodies are handled now: hold mouse to move it around, release mouse to drop it again (hold-type-grabber). It just feels very natural and somewhat authentic this way. I love it so much that I would like to see it optionally extended to all grabber-interactions. I also think that the new control scheme is a bit inconsistent because, depending on entity type, different kinds of inputs are required to achieve the same game functionality (the grabber).

Here is a table showing how different entity types are currently controlled:

Entity type	Short Press	Hold Button…	...Release Button
Junk	Grabber	Nothing	Nothing
Food	Grabber	Eat	Nothing
Loot	Pick-up	Nothing	Nothing
Bodies	Shoulder	Grabber	Release from Grabber
Lights	Grabber	Exstinguish	Nothing
Tools	Inventory	Nothing	Nothing

And here is a suggestion of how I would change it to make it consistent and to have more objects use the fun hold-type-grabber from bodies (of course the release from grabber by button release could be made optional such that a second click would release from grabber) .

Entity type	Short Press	Hold Button…	...Release Button (or optionally press again)
Junk	Nothing	Grabber	Release from Grabber
Food	Eat	Grabber	Release from Grabber
Loot	Pick-up	Grabber?	Release from Grabber?
Bodies	Shoulder	Grabber	Release from Grabber
Lights	Exstinguish	Grabber	Release from Grabber
Tools	Inventory	Grabber?	Release from Grabber?

All use-type interactions would be on short-press, whereas all grabber-interactions would be hold-type or on long press / press again. In addition to being more consistent, this control scheme also has the advantage that the grabber is always intentional, i.e., you never accidentally pick up a junk object. The only downside I can see right now is that, with the hold-type interaction, object rotation is a bit more finicky with the hold-type-grabber, because you have to press two buttons at the same time, but it's absolutely doable (I tried).

[Fan Mission: Iris by WellingtonCrab [TDM 2.10 Required] (2022/02/13)]

6 hours ago, Dragofer said:

As part of the 2.10 update, a long extinct engine feature was restored by duzenko that allowed the visual changes to happen. Meanwhile, when the item is used its custom scriptobject cycles through all entities on the map that have been marked with a custom spawnarg and updates their solidity. 2.10 was a very feature-heavy update so that became a theme in the contest and using this back-then experimental feature gave bonus points. Meanwhile it's become a core feature.

@MirceaKitsuneas this FM is the first instance of the overhauled and quite complex multi-part version of this AI script, it'd probably be good to compile all known issues like yours so the script can be finetuned further. Could probably also do with a wiki page to describe how to use its features.

Ahhh, so that's what the x-rays feature is. I read that term multiple times, but its development must've fell into one of my inactivity phases. 

[Fan Mission: Iris by WellingtonCrab [TDM 2.10 Required] (2022/02/13)]

Can't believe I missed this FM and played this now almost two years late. Congrats @Wellingtoncrab, what an incredible achievement. I loved every bit of it and it is sooooooo beautiful! Those volumetric lights really go a long way!! How the hell did you pull off

Spoiler

the changed architecture when putting on the glasses? Movers I assume?

I also loved the idea that you start out with almost nothing and have to acquire your tools, which kind of introduces some metroid vania elements to your FM. And that writing... Damn!

If I had to be really nitpicky, I would say that your FM had too many tools scattered around that you don't really need. Tool scarcity is always a sure-fire way to create tension, so I think your FM would have been even better if there were less flashbombs, water arrows etc., and more loot instead.

 

[Fan Mission: The Lieutenant 2: High Expectations by Frost_Salamander (2023/04/24)]

On 9/9/2023 at 2:05 PM, chakkman said:

I don't think it's the same guy, but, this guy's key is also not frobbable:

Haven't read the whole thread, but my theory is that this happens when you have already picked up the key the other guard (pool area) is wearing.

[OMFG System Shock "remake"?!?]

On 6/5/2023 at 8:41 PM, chakkman said:

Being 60 to 70% through, I can safely say that this is the game of the year for me.  Didn't have such a fun time since, well, Prey, I guess. The game doesn't hold your hand at all, which is so refreshing after all these dumb AAA grahics demos. I can only highly recommend this, if you're remotely into this kind of setting (I guess most of here are anyway).

I fully agree. And I also love the visuals. They are just fitting and perfectly resemble what I imagined Citadel to look like when I was a kid.  

Here's what I wrote about the game:

Quote

Modern open-world games give you the freedom to go where you want, but they don't give you the freedom to progress on your own. And here comes System Shock Remake, a game that leaves everything up to the player and that doesn't even have a quest log: You have to manually identify your quests from voice messages etc. in order to progress. It is so refreshing to see a game developer trust in the ability of the player to use their brain. Due to the personal nature of progression in this game, it feels like you are writing your own story while playing, and it is a really good one at that, if you look past the "AI wants to kill all humans" premise. The visuals perfectly capture the vibes of the original release. One thing they should have left in the Original is probably the Cyberspace shooting, which is just really eye-straining and boring. I recommend setting Cyberspace difficulty to 1 so that you're at least quickly finished with that crap. 9/10

 

[Notes and things.]

I feel like these efforts should go into the ingame mission viewer rather than an external application that most people are never going to see.

[RPS Article on Thief genre from perspective of original TTLG dev]

I honestly think without the survival aspect, you'll lose interrest even quicker. Survival games are all about overcoming harsh living conditions, whilst improving your gear, which gives you a sense of progress and accomplishment. Sure, exploration also plays a big part in Subnautica, but the exploration is hugely driven by the need for upgrades, and if the upgrades are simply not required without survival mechanics, the whole thing falls apart. I for one found the game incredibly boring, once I had unlocked all upgrades and discovered all relevant story bits. Still, the first 30 hours or so were very fun. If it just weren't riddled with bugs and had a few more quality of life features that makes everything less of a hassle....

Two of my favorite survival games, Stalker Anomaly and Green Hell, are very hard and unforgiving as well and that's exactly what makes them work so well. Once you understand their mechanics and know how to handle the different dangerous situations, incredible stories tend to unfold just by the game systems and you feel incredible for mastering these situations.

Here is a cool systems-based story I experienced in Green Hell:

Spoiler

Bitten by a big cat on exploration trip -> search the forest for honey and leafs to treat the wound -> too slow, wound infected -> search for maggots to treat infection -> getting very thristy -> No rain -> no clean water anywhere near -> With last remaining power, drink from a puddle -> got stomach infection -> search the forst for the right mushrooms to treat that -> finally found some and a coconut for water -> finally save!

 

One notable exception from this "the more hardcore the better"-rule of survival is Valheim. In that game, you are not punished for not eating or drinking properly. Instead, you get bonus stats by consuming dishes. So basically, you can just walk around in your base all day and build stuff or cut trees etc. without ever eating anything. That doesn't mean that this game is easy, 'though, as those consumables are definitely needed for the challenging combat during exploration and boss fights.

[The Dark Mod 2.11 feedback thread]

Thanks everyone, for putting in so much work, especially our mighty @stgatilov, but also all the other devs and testers.