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Could we see a picture of these guys under darker circumstances? :)

Edited by Melan

Come the time of peril, did the ground gape, and did the dead rest unquiet 'gainst us. Our bands of iron and hammers of stone prevailed not, and some did doubt the Builder's plan. But the seals held strong, and the few did triumph, and the doubters were lain into the foundations of the new sanctum. -- Collected letters of the Smith-in-Exile, Civitas Approved

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Added some temporary lights to FM that is just entering beta - I guess there is not much to show if all lights are off in your mission...   http://forums.thedarkmod.com/topic/19886-fm-marsh-of-rahena-

Got back to DR and added a few rooms to my WIP ...          

I AM BACK! http://www.bilder-upload.eu/show.php?file=019e20-1434833332.jpg And as a direct picture with a bit less resolution:

Posted Images

My first toddler-steps into the world of texture normalmaps below - not sure I could say I've been working on them, more just messing around and slapping them on a plain wall at the mo. The plaster ones are a bit meh but may have some potential; the scratchygold isn't a wall texture but I quite like it; and I don't know what the mouldygold texture is (but I really like it).

 

However, what I'm going to work on now is doing all of Fidcal's beginner's A-Z instead of just page 1.

 

From the sublime (Springheel) to this.... :)

post-9265-0-10397200-1332606326_thumb.jpg

post-9265-0-09609500-1332606321_thumb.jpg

post-9265-0-93853800-1332606333_thumb.jpg

post-9265-0-77943200-1332606329_thumb.jpg

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Those bottom ones look pretty good to me. Nice and grungy. :)

 

Very cool! Do you have a screenshot of the model from before for comparing?

 

I couldn't find one, actually.

 

Could we see a picture of these guys under darker circumstances?

 

How's this?

post-9-0-85097300-1332611711_thumb.jpg

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Those bottom ones look pretty good to me. Nice and grungy. :)

 

I do think these textures (the beaten gold one esp.) will be very fine for our statues and loot.

 

How's this?

 

Me gusta! :wub:

"The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man." -- George Bernard Shaw (1856 - 1950)

 

"Remember: If the game lets you do it, it's not cheating." -- Xarax

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Thatnks, Springheel! Wanted to see how they'd look in the shadows. :D

Come the time of peril, did the ground gape, and did the dead rest unquiet 'gainst us. Our bands of iron and hammers of stone prevailed not, and some did doubt the Builder's plan. But the seals held strong, and the few did triumph, and the doubters were lain into the foundations of the new sanctum. -- Collected letters of the Smith-in-Exile, Civitas Approved

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I don't think changing default behavior of a movable object is good idea. I got used to hit candles with broad arrow to throw on the ground. Now I can't do that and I'll be like waddaff?!

 

Pity. I used those thick candle models for the unmoveable candles and the moveable candles are all in a candle holder. Sure, it is only an inconsistency if the map has moveable candles in addition to the unmoveable ones.

 

If you think about arrowable light sources there are several issues. Why can't you shoot candles off the chandeliers? Or the wall candle mounts? Or break an electric grill light with an arrow? There is similar inconsistency in there.

 

Generally I avoid putting moveables in my maps. The reasons are simple: the AI cannot deal with them and the physics in general are borked.

 

EDIT: Hm.. I have to research the ability to make the light extinguish if an arrow hits the candle body. That might be a reasonable compromise.

 

Research completed:

http://www.mediafire...26mhm8quv5jzgbp

 

In the map there is an immobile candle on a tray on the left table. There are arrows, sword and blackjack lying around. The AI is there to relight the candle, he is your friend, so no need to avoid him. You can also use the slow matches to relight the candle.

 

You can turn the candle off by

*frobbing

*shooting a water arrow at it.

*shooting a broadhead arrow at the candle stick

*hit it with a sword

*throw/whack it with any moveable in the world. Try throwing the beer mugs at the candle. Try killing the AI and throwing the sword at the candle stick.

 

Sure, it is not a moveable, but it gives a lot of options for the player to bypass it. On the other hand, it is always possible for the AI to relight it. There is also the bonus that the broadhead is not ruined by hitting the soft wax candlestick. Comments? Suggestions?

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Clipper

-The mapper's best friend.

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Research completed:

http://www.mediafire...26mhm8quv5jzgbp

 

In the map there is an immobile candle on a tray on the left table. There are arrows, sword and blackjack lying around. The AI is there to relight the candle, he is your friend, so no need to avoid him. You can also use the slow matches to relight the candle.

 

You can turn the candle off by

*frobbing

*shooting a water arrow at it.

*shooting a broadhead arrow at the candle stick

*hit it with a sword

*throw/whack it with any moveable in the world. Try throwing the beer mugs at the candle. Try killing the AI and throwing the sword at the candle stick.

 

Sure, it is not a moveable, but it gives a lot of options for the player to bypass it. On the other hand, it is always possible for the AI to relight it. There is also the bonus that the broadhead is not ruined by hitting the soft wax candlestick. Comments? Suggestions?

 

sweet. :)

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Not sure what this is about moveable vs. non-movable candles. But moveable candles can be shoot down and they will extinguish when they lie on the floor, and the AI will also stop relighting them (thanx to all the coding work grayman did). The only thing the AI cannot do is put the candle back :)

 

So, why do we need unmovable candles that do just as the moveables do? Just so that the AI can relight them?

 

For the player I think this will become confusing, he never knows if a candle is which before he tries it, as each author will make it as he sees fit. That's not game desing. (It hasn't to be realistic, but at least it has to be consistent).

"The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man." -- George Bernard Shaw (1856 - 1950)

 

"Remember: If the game lets you do it, it's not cheating." -- Xarax

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Mappers are free to do whatever they want in their maps, and I can see making a candle immovable if it's really important that AI not knock it over, but I personally wouldn't want to encourage immovable candles that are indistinguishable from movable ones.

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I shot a broadhead at the candle and it stuck into the candle. I expected the arrow to knock the candle across the room. I suspect that's what would happen in real life. That's one helluva candle.

 

Also, the AI wasn't able to relight the candle with the arrow sticking out of it. It would just throw up a little smoke and stay out. The arrow is possibly upsetting the relight code, because the flame relights fine after removing the arrow.

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The reason I am interested in immobile objects is because the game physics are borked and door can be blocked with a few forks, for example. Also gameplaywise I find the mobile candles a bit poor because the AI has no means of getting them back to work. Also with moveables you could make a room to look totally ransacked and the AI still would not care.

 

In my missions, I am assuming the thief wants to be descreet and therefore does not want to touch items he does not need to. This deprives the player the ability to use arrows to turn off candles. With these immobile candles I maintain my unmoveable goal, the player has the ability to use a variety of methods to turn the candles off. I can also place these lights a lot and make them relightable, since the AI can always relight them. For me it is sort of best of the both worlds.

 

I gotta test the relighting behavior with the arrow on the candle. The purpose is failed if the arrow prevents relighting and does not alarm the AI. It must be due to the candlestick button reacting to objects touching it.

 

I also need to think a way to make the immobile candle distiguishable from the moveable one. Suggestions on that? We already have immobile candles on a wall mount and candles in chandeliers that cannot be frobbed of shot. This undermines the consistency argument a bit.

Clipper

-The mapper's best friend.

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The reason I am interested in immobile objects is because the game physics are borked and door can be blocked with a few forks, for example. Also gameplaywise I find the mobile candles a bit poor because the AI has no means of getting them back to work. Also with moveables you could make a room to look totally ransacked and the AI still would not care.

 

Whilte these are valid reasons, I still thing this points to a failure of the engine/mod, because all of the reduce to "because ther is a bug that does X".

 

It should be safe for the mapper to make moveables - they are great and allow the player alot of freedom. Nothin irks me more if I am deprived of moving things, just because the mapper thought it would be "better".

 

So the idea here is that we should encourage mappers to make things moveable, and fix the bugs and shortcomings that prevent such things.

 

In my missions, I am assuming the thief wants to be descreet and therefore does not want to touch items he does not need to.

 

Yes, but IMO this is no reason to remove the abiltity to do so. I am sure there are mappers out there who assume the thief never jumps, but we wouldn't let them remove the ablity to jump just to enforce it. (They still can do it, but it's not enocuraged)

 

This deprives the player the ability to use arrows to turn off candles.

 

Exactly.

 

With these immobile candles I maintain my unmoveable goal, the player has the ability to use a variety of methods to turn the candles off. I can also place these lights a lot and make them relightable, since the AI can always relight them. For me it is sort of best of the both worlds.

 

I also need to think a way to make the immobile candle distiguishable from the moveable one. Suggestions on that? We already have immobile candles on a wall mount and candles in chandeliers that cannot be frobbed of shot. This undermines the consistency argument a bit.

 

Just because others are not making it right doesn't give you the reason to follow them :) (Just saying and I don't want to hear any arguments about what is the "right" way as there is no-one, but nevertheless, we should strive for a sort of "best practices" for building FMs to guarantuee a good and consistent player experience across FMs.

"The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man." -- George Bernard Shaw (1856 - 1950)

 

"Remember: If the game lets you do it, it's not cheating." -- Xarax

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Yes, but IMO this is no reason to remove the abiltity to do so. I am sure there are mappers out there who assume the thief never jumps, but we wouldn't let them remove the ablity to jump just to enforce it. (They still can do it, but it's not enocuraged)

 

So the idea here is that we should encourage mappers to make things moveable, and fix the bugs and shortcomings that prevent such things.

 

The jumping analogue is a bit clumsy. The main reason is the borked physics. If I am still mapping when the moveables are working properly, I'll start placing them. While waiting for it, I'm not gonna use them, except for mission critical objects only. I usually tend to choose the reliable method due to simplicity and safety.

 

Just because others are not making it right doesn't give you the reason to follow them :) (Just saying and I don't want to hear any arguments about what is the "right" way as there is no-one, but nevertheless, we should strive for a sort of "best practices" for building FMs to guarantuee a good and consistent player experience across FMs.

 

Exactly. So if I a ) can fix the arrow-candle relighting issue and b ) find a way to make the immobile candles look different enough from the moveable candles, everything will be just fine. The appearance difference between the immobile candles and moveable ones need to be at least in the same order as the difference is between moveable candles and the candles in wall mounts / chandeliers that cannot be pinched/shot. So I need to make some kind of heavy looking candle holder.

Clipper

-The mapper's best friend.

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The jumping analogue is a bit clumsy. The main reason is the borked physics. If I am still mapping when the moveables are working properly, I'll start placing them. While waiting for it, I'm not gonna use them, except for mission critical objects only. I usually tend to choose the reliable method due to simplicity and safety.

 

 

 

Exactly. So if I a ) can fix the arrow-candle relighting issue and b ) find a way to make the immobile candles look different enough from the moveable candles, everything will be just fine. The appearance difference between the immobile candles and moveable ones need to be at least in the same order as the difference is between moveable candles and the candles in wall mounts / chandeliers that cannot be pinched/shot. So I need to make some kind of heavy looking candle holder.

 

As a player I would still wonder why you can shoot out immovable candles with an arrow, that then either sticks (so the AI notices it and goes bonkers) or breaks (wasting an arrow).

 

All the while we have water arrows.. We actually have all the combinations:

 

* oil lamps (water arrow, pinch)

* moveable candles (water arrow, arrow, pinch, throw to floor)

* immovable fireflames (water arrow)

 

so I am not sure we really need the "immovable candle", too.

 

But as a mapper, you can do anything you want, anyway, even if most players will never figure it out :)

"The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man." -- George Bernard Shaw (1856 - 1950)

 

"Remember: If the game lets you do it, it's not cheating." -- Xarax

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I'm just testing how flexible the lights are

 

 

 

ivPU3GG9mzQ9W.jpg

 

 

(I've wrapped the image in spoiler tags, but I remember there was a better way to deal with large images..)

 

This is very nice! I'm just discovering the possibilities of simulating bounced light now, I thought non shadow casting lights would be the answer that would allow for several degrees of light levels, but the visual result is inconsistent with them (because of the way they light up surfaces that are facing it, even when they shouldnt be lit), and pretty hard not to leak it to other rooms. So Im making a couple of experiences in my map as to how to use more than one light source to create the illusion, depending on the room and type of light source. Will be looking foward to that tutorial!

 

Another cool thing I discovered pretty much yesterday is that with zone settings you can make the room light level increase of decrease depending on how many light sources you have inside it, also simulating another aspect of bounced light. I dont think I'll have time to experiment with it further though...

Edited by RPGista
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I'm just testing how flexible the lights are

 

 

 

ivPU3GG9mzQ9W.jpg

 

 

(I've wrapped the image in spoiler tags, but I remember there was a better way to deal with large images..)

 

Nice stuff Diego. Though the faked radiosity in this example clashes a little with the high contrast shadows. A little fog or bloom would help.

How many lights did this take?

Did you use custom projection images?

 

As for Sotha's workarounds, I wouldn't get too worked-up about it. As game players we all know that there will be places where the game fails to

fully mirror reality. Of all the ways that TDM could let you down and break immersion, this seems to be one of the more tame ones. I would even offer that this is

a valid performance optimization (by reducing the physics objects in the scene) though it may be a preferred practice to ensure these static candles

are out-of-reach for players and merely decorative.

 

I'm not sure Sotha's example is extreme or divergent enough to merit this but... I will suggest that if any mapper does something that breaks a TDM gameplay convention that they

include a "Player Notes" section in their briefing to explain the divergence. Once players are given the ground rules for a mission they can acclimate to the changes. A mission author

could create a brilliant puzzle mission where all NPC's are immune to Blackjack. As long as the author makes this clear to players, that is a valid divergence. (cough no mention of a certain

"winter" mission that did not warn players about the break in conventions... cough).

Please visit TDM's IndieDB site and help promote the mod:

 

http://www.indiedb.com/mods/the-dark-mod

 

(Yeah, shameless promotion... but traffic is traffic folks...)

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Heh, nbohr.. "Sotha the Extreme Dissident Mapper".. I like the ring of it. ^_^

 

Anyhow: I redesigned the candle.

It works exactly the same, but shooting a broadhead at it kills the light but also destroys the arrow. I had to do this to avoid the AI having difficulties relighting the light.

 

I also added some braces on the candle to make it look more sturdy, possibly conveying the cue that this candle might stay stationary.

 

I don't think this will break any conventions. The players are used to frob-pinch candles. They can do that with these. The players are used to topple candles with arrows to kill the light. They do that with these, the only difference is that the candle will not fly around, bouncing like crazy, possibly ending up upright (and lit!) like when it started its flight. One arrow, guaranteed light out, no fuss. The bonus is that the AI relight behavior works and the gameplay is solid as the light source remains where it is supposed to.

 

If someone is interested in these, here is the second version:

http://www.mediafire.com/?vq0s1nt5xc5w1ww

 

I also want to thank everyone for their constructive feedback. Big thanks goes for grayman for pointing out the relight issue.

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Clipper

-The mapper's best friend.

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Nice stuff Diego. Though the faked radiosity in this example clashes a little with the high contrast shadows. A little fog or bloom would help.

How many lights did this take?

 

Did you use custom projection images?

Respectively:

 

Might need some tweaking but it's meant to be have dark shaded areas. The idea is simulated exposure levels, this is the exterior where the player is supposedly focused on the well lit areas. I'm making another, an interior, and the sunlight will be almost blown white, but the whole room will be much clear than the shaded areas in the exterior.

 

One directional under the wooden thing and several omnis on the walls.

 

Made by me? No, but I did use some of the available projections (round, rounded square etc)

 

This is very nice! I'm just discovering the possibilities of simulating bounced light now, I thought non shadow casting lights would be the answer that would allow for several degrees of light levels, but the visual result is inconsistent with them (because of the way they light up surfaces that are facing it, even when they shouldnt be lit), and pretty hard not to leak it to other rooms. So Im making a couple of experiences in my map as to how to use more than one light source to create the illusion, depending on the room and type of light source. Will be looking foward to that tutorial!

 

Another cool thing I discovered pretty much yesterday is that with zone settings you can make the room light level increase of decrease depending on how many light sources you have inside it, also simulating another aspect of bounced light. I dont think I'll have time to experiment with it further though...

 

It is hard to control these lights! D3 light system is great but not intuitive at all. I'm used to work with lights as something that irradiantes from a point or area, not cubes with projections lol. Anyway, so far I don't think I have anthing new to consider writing a tutorial.

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To my knowledge, the trick to wrangling lights (*other changing than the bounding box) is to change the "Falloff Image".

 

It's still a pain though because there is no tool to volumetric-ally visualize the contents of the light volume.

 

*The general Doom 3 world consensus is that using "overbright" lights with small bounding boxes is the best way to tackle this.

 

http://www.doom3world.org/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=15603&start=0&st=0&sk=t&sd=a

 

Scaling the light values in DR should do the same thing.

 

Ideally, your decorative point lights would be bound by an oblong volume that hugs the wall it lights.

 

I won't pretend that making those microscopic light volumes is easy for mappers though...

Please visit TDM's IndieDB site and help promote the mod:

 

http://www.indiedb.com/mods/the-dark-mod

 

(Yeah, shameless promotion... but traffic is traffic folks...)

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