Jump to content
The Dark Mod Forums

So, what are you working on right now?


Springheel
 Share

Recommended Posts

15 hours ago, demagogue said:

 

Re: "...by Doom creator John Cormac."

Eh, would he be any relation to Doom creator John Carmack? ūüėÜ

You made me have to dig out my old wiki username and password for that one.

Doh! Could've been worse, I could've called him "Johnnie Cochran" (lawyer in the O.J. Simpson trial)

Will fix. Oh, you already did. Thanks!

Edited by Geep
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 2 weeks later...

After the tedium of mind-numbingly endless playthroughs I "finished" my work in progress and am studying up on how to package it.  The packagings, loading screens and briefings etc. of some of the new missions are daunting in their artistry.  I'm not going to try for that!  

Problems with the FM in its current state: 

1.  Low fps in some places will cause premature hair loss and possible heart attacks in high-fps junkies.  

2.  The FM currently weighs in at approx. 1.70 GB.  I can whittle that down some, but not much.

3.  The FM requires TDM v2.10 to load.  9350 entities.

 

  • Like 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, geegee said:

2.  The FM currently weighs in at approx. 1.70 GB.  I can whittle that down some, but not much.

Damn, how does this break down by folder / asset type? Stuff like .tga diffuses and speculars can be compressed into .dds, for example.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, Dragofer said:

Damn ...

Yes.  Damn.  It doesn't break down as I thought it would:

dds :  159MB,  399 textures

env :  108MB, 144 textures, all .tga

Does anyone know of a good simple batch convertor .tga->.dds?  

maps : 432MB

models : 242MB (I was surprised by this) (eta: scaled models are 160MB)

sound : 84MB

textures : 476MB.  These have been near 100% culled of unused ones and seems to be entirely _ed.jpg and _local.tga files

the rest :  83MB

Total = 1,584MB

_____________

and since I've got your attention @Dragofer, do you (or anyone reading this) happen to know whether the authors of the original core model assets are listed somewhere?  I've done a lot of copying of stuff like gaslight4.lwo, standing_oil_lamp.lwo, etc, into brush/patch duplicates that I retexture and use as base, so where the hard work was already done.  I'd like to credit the creators.  Somehow I got the impression that you might be one of them.

 

 

Edited by geegee
Link to comment
Share on other sites

35 minutes ago, AluminumHaste said:

So you made all new custom textures, sounds and models?

No.  A few things I did were global, like handling windows, light fixtures, transparencies esp., but hopefully the impact is subtle.  If not, I did it badly.  My intent has been to make an FM that dovetails in with the TDM universe.  If it doesn't then I won't release it.  

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Well I'm confused then...

"textures : 476MB.  These have been near 100% culled of unused ones and seems to be entirely _ed.jpg and _local.tga files

dds :  159MB,  399 textures

env :  108MB, 144 textures, all .tga"

How does your FM use 476MB's of textures plus 159MB's of DDS textures 108MB of env textures, if you didn't make them yourself?
If those are part of core Dark Mod, then you don't need to include them when zipping your mission.

EDIT: And don't worry if your mission "fits" into the TDM universe, it doesn't have to all. Make what you want.

  • Like 1

I always assumed I'd taste like boot leather.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, AluminumHaste said:

How does your FM use 476MB's of textures plus 159MB's of DDS textures 108MB of env textures, if you didn't make them yourself?

Sigh.  Then I wonder why you would ask if I made the new textures etc. myself? Of course I, in the widest sense, made the new stuff myself.  But that doesn't mean I used "all new textures, sounds and models".  I interpreted the "all new" to mean I built a bloody TC.  The few new sounds are all downloads from freesound.  I didn't make them.  But they aren't stock.  The "new" models are mostly either resized stock or are exact copies of existing models made in DR so I could retexture and add onto them etc., plus some stuff I made into models because as simple DR func_statics they were problematic and -- I don't quite know why -- as models the problems vanished.  

Copying those lamp etc. models was a great way to learn how to use patches, to learn about how objects are sized and so on, and gave me an unforeseen insight into all the deep work that must have gone into figuring it out and putting it together from scratch. 

As I said, it has been my intention to capture an impression of the existing TDM universe.  If a regular TDM player drops in and goes wtf? this isn't TDM, so what is it? Then I didn't do what I wanted to do.  Anyhow, anyone wandering down Springheel Lane, past the intolerable Builders, and entering Spooks' tavern will recognize the vibe. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

12 hours ago, geegee said:

maps : 432MB

How do you get 432 MB for just maps? Do you have a gigantic number of tiny brushes and patches or something?

12 hours ago, geegee said:

textures : 476MB.  These have been near 100% culled of unused ones and seems to be entirely _ed.jpg and _local.tga files

You don't need to include _ed textures in a released FM package. The normal maps can be compressed to RGTC DDS format (I believe there is support in the latest game version) which should save a bit of space.

12 hours ago, geegee said:

I've done a lot of copying of stuff like gaslight4.lwo, standing_oil_lamp.lwo, etc, into brush/patch duplicates that I retexture and use as base

That might be the cause of the huge maps. It seems like a terribly inefficient way to create models to me. Brushes and patches are not designed to duplicate the fine detail of LWO models. The data will be huge, brushes do not have smooth shading, and the map compilation will probably run into problems (out of memory, missing triangles, etc).

5 hours ago, geegee said:

exact copies of existing models made in DR so I could retexture and add onto them etc.,

Sorry to say, I think you need to go back to the drawing board with this approach. You don't need to make copies of models just to change textures (you can use skins, or just override the material shader in your PK4), and if you do need to copy a model, converting it via DR brushes is absolutely the worst way to do so. DR's model export is designed for exporting simple brush and patch geometry into your 3D tool so you can create matching detailed models, it is not a model editing or conversion tool in itself.

Even if you do persuade people to download a 1.7 GB map, I think people are going to run into huge problems with memory usage, crashes, low FPS, rendering problems and all the other consequences of trying to embed detailed LWO models as brushes in your map.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Well, you probably don't have to throw away the whole map. Just re-think the approach to customising models, in order to avoid overly complex brush geometry. For example, you could stick with the stock models to begin with, and see if this reduces the excessive disk size and FPS problems, then start customising the ones you want (by repainting textures, creating skins, or editing the LWO models in your 3D app of choice) until you have a look you're happy with.

It's quite possible my guesses are way off base, and customised models are not in fact the cause of the size and performance problems. But this is certainly consistent with what you have reported with regard to low FPS and a huge maps directory.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Springheel's prefab facades, the one on the right fitted out as a tavern, as per Springheel's sign outside.

My instinct when looking at this screenshot is to replace the 'lit' widows in the backmost prefab with ones more subtle, that change in intensity as the player moves around.  

gg_screen8.jpg

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

@geegee, regarding your question about command-line/batch conversion from .tga to .dds...

I don't have direct experience, so maybe someone else does? But there's an old version of ATI Compressonator that can be used from the command line, described in our wiki at:

DDS Creation with ATI Compressonator

Hard to find additional info about using that, though.

The latest version of Compressonator, now under the AMD brand, is at:

https://gpuopen.com/compressonator/

These compressor projects also seem to have relevant command-line capabilities:

https://developer.imaginationtech.com/pvrtextool/

https://github.com/BinomialLLC/crunch

If you get any of these to work usefully for batch conversion in a TDM context, I or you can add that info to the wiki.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, geegee said:

A 200MB .proc file in maps. 

There's definitely something going wrong there. By contrast, The Painters Wife¬†has a 56 MB .proc file and a 38 MB .map file ‚ÄĒ so your map is almost four times the size of the largest map ever released. TPW also has a 1141 MB models/ folder full of custom ASE files, so I would say the model sizes probably aren't the main problem (they should compress well).

I would check your map carefully to make sure you don't have any embedded models converted into brushes ‚ÄĒ if all you did was convert the model then export to a new ASE/LWO file, this should not increase the size of the .proc file provided you didn't leave the brushwork in the map.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

8 hours ago, OrbWeaver said:

DR's model export is designed for exporting simple brush and patch geometry into your 3D tool so you can create matching detailed models, it is not a model editing or conversion tool in itself.

I don't think it's this black and white. The process you describe is the technically correct way to do modelling, but TDM has a long history of mappers making models "on the fly" in DR using brushes and patches at a level of detail that may not seem out of place when seen together with TDM's other models, and without much of a technical difference compared to if that model had been made in Blender.

I myself have made detailed ships (as seen in Perilous Refuge), quite a few furniture pieces (of which most are in core assets) as well as the stagecoach and lamp models back in 2016 (which are also in core assets). Usually I passed them through Blender for some touching up, but DR on its own can produce quite useable results.

The main problem imo with using DR to make models is that it takes a lot of time, so it'd be very much adviseable to use skins or to use DR's model exporter to add new geometry to an existing model. For example for your good-looking new type of standing oil lamp, I'd just have drawn a glass patch around the top of an existing standing oil lamp and exported them both together as a new model.

It can also get problematic if you try to add really small details, i.e. I remember shading issues when I tried to make small desk oil lamps where I sometimes had to drop down to a grid size of 0.125. Generally one should primarily use patches wherever reasonable, since as you say brushes don't have smooth shading.

Performance-wise I have a feeling that leaving big complex models as brushes and patches without turning them into .lwo or .ase models using DR's exporter is disadvantageous, but I haven't confirmed that yet.

@geegeeOne thing to consider is that your figure of 1.7 GB is probably in its uncompressed state, which isn't how you're going to distribute the mission, so I'd look at how much it weighs as a .zip.

Map files and .ase models are text-based, so they compress really well - IIRC they'll be only 8% or so of the original size. I guess you also have .bak files and autosaves in your maps folder, maybe also a snapshots folder?

The weight of the .proc and .map files themselves does seem abnormal. Have you converted your brush-and-patch remakes as models or left them as is?

21 hours ago, geegee said:

and since I've got your attention @Dragofer, do you (or anyone reading this) happen to know whether the authors of the original core model assets are listed somewhere?  I've done a lot of copying of stuff like gaslight4.lwo, standing_oil_lamp.lwo, etc, into brush/patch duplicates that I retexture and use as base, so where the hard work was already done.  I'd like to credit the creators.  Somehow I got the impression that you might be one of them.

No, it's not known - a lot of models were added by a lot of people as many as 10 years ago, and our contribution tracking wasn't as robust back then. I myself have contributed i.e. the oil desk lamp and desk02/desk03 series and the miniature ship models.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, OrbWeaver said:

The Painters Wife¬†has a 56 MB .proc file and a 38 MB .map file ‚ÄĒ so your map is almost four times the size of the largest map ever released.

.map       61.5M

.proc       200M

brushes   22362

patches   16507 (<- a you were saying...)

entities     9357

# of patches is no doubt because in most cases I just copy/pasted the non-.ase func_static concoctions.  So I'll do as you suggest and replace all of them with the corresponding .ase models and see how that works out.  And as you said, models render better with fewer glitches. 

Following on @Geep reply I tried compressionator v4.1.  I had the thing installed but forgot what it was!  v4.1 is quite easy to use to batch convert .tga->.dds, but it adds a string of capital letters to the end of the original names and no way to change that behavior, and also capitalizes .DDS.  I used a batch renamer (metamorphose) to get the names I wanted.  However, the newly compressed .dds (DXT1) in the env folder couldn't be found or read by TDM, and sad to say but it makes quite a difference losing all those fake window reflections.   A loss of vitality.  Perhaps like .dds textures, .dds env files need to be in another directory?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, geegee said:

However, the newly compressed .dds (DXT1) in the env folder couldn't be found or read by TDM, and sad to say but it makes quite a difference losing all those fake window reflections.   A loss of vitality.  Perhaps like .dds textures, .dds env files need to be in another directory?

I don't think you can compress env images as .dds, it hasn't worked for me in the past.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

 Share


×
×
  • Create New...