Baddcog's initial impression

[Baddcog]

Been messing around a bit since last night getting everything up to date and running. Played through the trainer, most of Chalice, some of Outpost.

 

Generally I think it's shaping up really nicely.

 

One issue I am having at the moment is guards footstep sounds. I have my sfx volume at about half and can hear everything great. Some stuff seems a bit loud or quiet, minor tweaks.

But the gaurds footsteps can't be heard at all. They are very silent, this led to guards sneaking up on me quite a few times in Chalice. They'd bump into me and I hadn't heard anything.

 

You should deffinately be able to hear them from a distance coming towards you. Their voices can give them away but I think footsteps are an even more important indicator of their presence. Walking carefully down a spiral staircase or around a corner that is completely silent, then bumping into a guard walking towards you is not good.

 

I looked into a bunch of pk4's, including the builder guard def files, but can't find footsteps listed. The Wiki also says they are there, so not sure if that stuff was moved at some point. I'd like to tweak 'em, at least for myself. If someone could point 'em out I'd appreciate it.

 

I also had the feeling the player box is too wide front to back (not sure about back) but trying to grab things from library desk in Chalice I felt like I could barely reach the desk. Looking stright down I had a pretty large empty space in front of me.

 

I noticed too that it seems like everyone is using the lock bar from the wall lockbox on the chests instead of the chest one. That's part of the reason I did the chest prefab, so people could just grab the one set-up and go. No biggie, they still work.

 

I did have an issue with the glow around the lamps in Chalice. If AA is turned off the transparency around the glow sprite blocks other sprites down the hall. So you can see a square corner of clear in the middle of the sprite down the hall. I had AA turned off to help fps, but with it on 2 the fps seems the same. Nividia 8600gts, not sure if it's the culprit or not.

 

The missions seem to load in around a minute for me, so that's great.

 

My fps isn't ever that great, steady 20-30 in most spots so far. I think I need a better gpu, I'm pushing a 24" monitor and even though my card is pretty decent I just don't think it's enough for this thing.

But in TeamFortress2 it is usually around 30 and alot of people brag of 100+ (that also depends on how you read the graph - but still, I think the monitor is just too much.

I did lower res but only to 1600 range.

 

Lockpicking is awesome.

 

Frobbing works pretty well with the chests how they are in Chalice.

[Springheel]

But the gaurds footsteps can't be heard at all. They are very silent, this led to guards sneaking up on me quite a few times in Chalice. They'd bump into me and I hadn't heard anything.

 

That doesn't sound right. You should be able to hear footsteps at the same distance as voices.

[HappyCheeze]

Welcome back Baddcog!

[Baddcog]

Yeah, I don't remember it being like that before. (footsteps). It also doesn't seem like something that would slip past the team easily, guess why that's what puzzled me about it.

 

I did find the file and adjusted some footstep sounds. They sounded better right off, but then a guard came towards me and his footsteps seemed to have gotten quieter, until right near me I couldn't hear them. Yet it sounded like another guard walking away in the distance.

 

I read something about EAX issues, and hearing distances. And I have a soundblaster X-Fi xtreme gamer. Supposed to be a good card but I've heard things...

 

I'm gonna try tonight with EAX off and see if that helps.

[gog.bgbrendle]

I noticed the footsteps thing in Chalice too, although i have to admit that a game hasn't scared the bejeezus out of me like that in a long time...so maybe it's a good bug? :-)

 

The biggest trouble I seem to be having is the guards' ai. I know that the stim/response system is probably the most complicated part of the DM code, and I am actually very impressed with how well it works...since they really had nothing to go on with the code that was included in D3. To build that system from scratch, incredible. I have noticed a few bugs with it though.

 

1: Guard response to stim is very ...random. Once I quicksaved in a certain spot facing a guard. I was unseen, whipped out my broadheads and piled (count 'em) 8 arrows into this guards' shoulder, and not a move out of him afterward! He just stood there stoically. Ok, I thought...let's quick load. This time, as soon as I pull out my bow, the guy spots me and pummels me to death right away. This also has happened to me with the blackjack. I waited perched ontop of some boxes for a guard to walk by. I mean his head could not have been easier to hit, so I bonk him. The guy grunts like I hit him good, but just keeps on patrolling like nothings' happened!

 

2: Guard alert doesn't always seem to 'transfer.' I sat in a corner for a few minutes once watching two guards. The first one was in full 'sprint down the corridor' mode. Now it was kind of a narrow hallway and the other guard happened to be in 'stand there doing nothing' mode. The guy that's panicking would probably have run in place trying to pass the other guard forever if I hadn't just moved on.

 

3: Guard search patterns. When they are searching the dark for you, it seems to me like they make it pretty obvious that they already know where you are/where you're going. For the most part, if you murder one of their friends in a room with 100 dark corners, they will beeline for the very corner that you are in every time, ignoring other possible areas that an assassin may be hiding (even if they are more likely spots).

 

Anyway, really minor stuff because for the most part, I have seen the guards work quite effectively together, and I know the system works. So this definitely files under 'stuff i'd love to see in the future.' I love the game and am having a blast with it more than any other game this year...I just know that if it's possible to fix this kind of thing, it will break the immersion less and absorb more and more folks into the DM's power!! buahahahah.

[Dario D.]

I had 2 instances of strange footsteps in Chalice:

 

1) The guards' footsteps often sounded very loud, as if they were always walking right where I was standing. (this might have only been in certain areas, like the crown room, but I wasn't paying it too much attention)

 

2) At one point, I kept having to reload a certain part, because I would fire a noise-maker arrow from behind a statue, then immediately start hearing a flurry of loud footsteps a couple feet away (my own, I guess) even though I was holding still... and the guards would catch me because of it. I finally just canceled firing the noisemaker arrow, and tried something else.

 

(the spot was in the room with the crown in the center... I was hiding behind the statue off to the left <that is, left if you're facing the large double-doors that don't open)

Edited October 22, 2009 by Dario D.

[Baddcog]

Well, I think there is something going on with the footsteps but part of it might have been me.

 

By the time I got back in game last night I was tired and didn't play much.

 

1: I turned EAX off. It seemed to help some maybe. But then a guard walked up to me and his footsteps were silent for a bit. It was in Outpost I believe, dark grey floor and maybe carpets nearby. So maybe sound just didn't transfer from carpet to stone floor.

But I'll test more this weekend and see if I can pin anything down, either on my end or mod's end. Can't confirm it's not me for sure right now.

 

2: Seems like invert audio channels was on. I thought in the past I had to use it. Now it seems like I don't. So maybe that's part of it. Again, needs more testing on my side to be sure where the problems lie. EAX on/off didn't seem consistant in short tests to determine EAX on my card at fault.

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I also noticed some inconsistancies with the AI like gog.bgbrendle stated. Mainly walking into doors is still buggy IMO. They get stuck behind an open door and just keep walking, or you close a door and block it and 'clcik, click,click....' the AI never gets the point he can't open it and wont stop trying. I think I brought this up before, there should be something to tel them after like 3 tries just to give up and go about their business.

Same with walking into a wall, if they get stuck they need something to tell them after a bit of repeated motions in a small area to try something else.

 

Also with doors, regarding Ai opening anims. Not sure if they stay further away from door on the side it swings too, they seem to. But the anim has them reach their hand out to open door. But it never really gets close to door, I think maybe it would look better if the anim had more upper body lean to get their hand closer to the door (I'm sure there will always be a gap as getting them to actually touch it would be a major pain).

 

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After starting Outpost I still feel that the players width seems like he has a huge beer belly. There were some coins on a table with dice. Once I moved a chair to get close enough to grab a coin at the far side, the second time I actually had to climb up on the table to reach the coin.

Same with some candle sticks on a dining table in the crown mission I believe. Kindof silly to have to mantle onto a table to grab something that looks within reach.

That also adds issues with knocking things off, making alot of noise... getting up into well lit areas...

[demagogue]

I noticed AI getting stuck behind doors and the best solution I found is for mappers to just monster-clip the area where a troublesome door will be when it's open. It's something the mappers probably didn't think of, but I do it and it's worked great for me, and it doesn't mess up the gameplay any. (I read about it from the TDS guys doing it.) We might make a note of it in a tutorial somewhere. Of course, you still have to be smart about it and leave a path for the AI for it to work well.

[Baddcog]

EAX works fine.

 

Crown and Outpost had no sound issues (save for footsteps on tile being an aweful sound that sound like someone just clacked sticks together).

 

I'm gonna try Chalice again, but I think the issue was starting with Chalice AND having inverted channels. I played the other missions without inverted channels.

Is it set -up default to have inverted channels? if so that's very odd and not something people would expect, and probably leading to the complaint people have about not hearing, knowing where guards are.

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OK, restarted Chalice and the footsteps issue was deffinately a inverted channels issue. They all seem fine now.

[Serpentine]

I'm just going to use this to continue talking about audio.

 

I have found a few objects that dont seem to have a sound for when they are dropped/stood on/interacted with, the two that I can remember off hand is the quill in the top room of Outpost, when I drop it it produces a low pitched beeping sound. The same happens with standing or hitting around a fired noisemaker arrow, which is where I first noticed it. I thought that you had given them a double purpose and that when someone stood on it/walked into it it would make a low beeping sound to warn me, and so I started using them as little alarms.

 

Other than that, in a number of areas with the roof being of normal height I am almost unable to distinguish if a sound is next to me or a floor above/below me (as if height was ignored [x,y,z->x,z]). Outpost didnt seem to have thism, it might also be linked to the 'footsteps are loud' issue as I seem to make one hell of a noise moving around quickly.

 

Anyway - as for the rest, you guys have done an amazing job

[Mortem Desino]

I have found a few objects that dont seem to have a sound for when they are dropped/stood on/interacted with, the two that I can remember off hand is the quill in the top room of Outpost, when I drop it it produces a low pitched beeping sound. The same happens with standing or hitting around a fired noisemaker arrow, which is where I first noticed it. I thought that you had given them a double purpose and that when someone stood on it/walked into it it would make a low beeping sound to warn me, and so I started using them as little alarms.

Is that our Jorge sound? Huh. I thought it was a rubber ducky, and not a beep.

[Serpentine]

Is that our Jorge sound? Huh. I thought it was a rubber ducky, and not a beep.

 

I'd go as far as to say it is more of a 'boop' sound