Wolfenstein Shadows?

[Dario D.]

I did a forum search for this, but, surprisingly, it seems nobody has brought it up yet.

 

Have you guys (Dark Mod devs) looked into soft-shadows/lighting in Wolfenstein (the 2009 one)? What are the implications of finding some way to get similar soft-shadows into the Doom3 version of the idTech4 engine? It's not terribly important - and I don't know if making a full engine-switch would be a good idea, since I don't think anyone's going to be playing Wolfenstein... I don't know the numbers, though - but soft shadows would be cool, nonetheless.

 

Update: forgot to point out that I don't actually expect an engine switch to be practical, but I just don't know for certain. (this engine is a mystery to me)

 

In Wolfenstein, most lights don't actually cast any shadows at all (I guess it's too computationally "expensive"), but, of course, the key ones in each room/area do. It would certainly eat into Dark Mod performance (for those who put shadow detail on High), but would make a welcome addition, if there can be some way to get the effect into the game.

 

No idea what the specifics are. This is all just food for thought.

 

Anyway, here are some shots of the lighting, in a Dark Mod-esque context:

 

 

 

(full-size image)

 

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also shows some scattered indoor footage, with Dark Mod-style interiors. And here's a lamp being knocked around. Edited November 5, 2009 by Dario D.

[Crispy]

An engine port is pretty much out of the question. On the other hand, there's no in-principle reason why someone couldn't rewrite bits of the renderer and implement features such as soft-shadowing once Doom 3 goes open source.

 

Just for fun - note that the shadows there aren't at all physically accurate. Look at the shadow of the posts in the second image. They're equally as blurry close to the pole as they are far away from it... Not dissing the game at all (this is just one of those performance/quality tradeoffs that has to be made), just pointing out that it's not significantly more technically advanced than hard shadows, merely fuzzier.

[New Horizon]

I did a forum search for this, but, surprisingly, it seems nobody has brought it up yet.

 

Have you guys (Dark Mod devs) looked into soft-shadows/lighting in Wolfenstein (the 2009 one)? What are the implications of finding some way to get similar soft-shadows into the Doom3 version of the idTech4 engine? It's not terribly important - and I don't know if making a full engine-switch would be a good idea, since I don't think anyone's going to be playing Wolfenstein... I don't know the numbers, though - but it would be cool, nonetheless.

 

Full engine switch? That would be project suicide. You can't just switch engines that easily, even switching to Quake 4, Prey, or Enemy Territory: Quake Wars would be an insane amount of work. The wolfenstein engine is also heavily modified, so there isn't a lot left in common with the idtech 4 renderer. Raven did a fairly complete rewrite of it from what I've read.

 

In addition, when the idtech 4 goes open source...it's going to be the Doom 3 engine, not any of the other games that goes open source, so it wouldn't be of much use to us to be using any engine but D3.

 

No idea what the specifics are. This is all just food for thought.

 

It's a lot of work, and a huge impact on performance. There are some guys at Doom 3 world hacking this in through the shader system, but that's just it...it's a hack, and as such very expensive. Any advancements like this are better left to when the D3 engine is open sourced. Then the enhancement can be optimized and added directly to the renderer.

[Dario D.]

Hmm, I see. Yeah, I added a note to my original post clarifying that, by default, I never assume an engine switch is practical, but I thought there could've been a chance that switching from idTech4 to idTech4-modified might've been on the easy side. (but, again, you also have the problem that if nobody's going to PLAY Wolfenstein, why move to it?) I hope idTech4 goes open-source soon. Last I read, there was some potential issue with Activision.

[PinkDot]

Having any sort of softer shadows, even faked area shadows would really help to achieve medieval-like atmosphere. Current shadows are so sharp, that I often take them as a geometry edge.

I think there is even a base in the renderer code for area shadows support. AFAIR, there was a way to turn them on, when recording a demo, but they didn't really work well, when I tried that.

 

Anyway - I hope renderer will get open source soon, cause in a few years time soft shadows and global illumination in games will become a standard.

[Dario D.]

I wonder if the Wolf version of idTech4 will be released at the same time, since it's technically still idTech4. Perhaps the lighting code could be lifted from there. (and stuff like Parallax Occlusion mapping <notice engravings on back wall)

Edited November 9, 2009 by Dario D.

[New Horizon]

I wonder if the Wolf version of idTech4 will be released at the same time, since it's technically still idTech4.

 

There won't be a wolf version of the source code. Id software only releases the original engine code. I don't know of any companies using id engines that have released the code.

[Ishtvan]

Are those really soft shadows, or just a light texture (with fake soft edges) on top of an ambient light background? Can't we already do that?

[New Horizon]

The stuff over on doom 3 world is a hack of some sort with shaders...but yeah, I imagine we could already do some soft faked shadows with light textures.

[Baddcog]

I wonder if the Wolf version of idTech4 will be released at the same time, since it's technically still idTech4. Perhaps the lighting code could be lifted from there. (and stuff like Parallax Occlusion mapping <notice engravings on back wall)

 

 

Hey, I used that Griffen with the key in Crom's Blade back in 2001(?)

[jdude]

Even though i too would like softshadows, it really wouldn't make much of a difference for TDM. It seems to me like something you'd randomly look at and say to yourself 'nice'. It's pretty much sprinkles on top of a chocolate cake

 

I think parallax maps would have more of an impact but the same applies.

[dSpair]

There won't be a wolf version of the source code. Id software only releases the original engine code. I don't know of any companies using id engines that have released the code.

 

Original Heretic and Hexen source codes were released by Raven. RtCW source has been released too.