Undead, Zombies, Haunts

[SiyahParsomen]

Sunlight. Not artificial light.

 

Obviously, "because Thief did it that way" is reason enough for some people.

 

As long as you made it UV, it doesn't matter. So, that was used in flashbombs in old ages. Yes... that must be

 

For me, it's not reason because it was like that in original series. The reason is the Stocker who is the prime mover of this.

[Tels]

I know that was the justification in Thief, but it's pretty weak. Undead never seemed to have any problems with other sources of light in the game. Though it would be neat to have a type of undead that did react to light, and fled from it.

 

That can be coded it. We could re-use the same logic for the rats, and maybe spiders, too, so we kill three monsters with one flash of light, or so.

[AlarusLOL]

 

In gameplay terms, why would I bother to buy holy water if flashbombs can kill undead as well?

 

Well, a water arrow is 50 GP apiece in the original thief, a flashbomb is 200. Holy water is also 200, but it's effective for 30 seconds. It takes 2 holy water arrows to kill a zombie. It takes 2 flashbombs to knock a zombie down, 3 to kill it. Thus, it's probably more cost effective to use holy water and water arrows. Using flashbombs against undead is more of a last resort.

[Diego]

Obviously, everyone here loves what LG did with those games, but everyone also has to agree that lots of things could be improved, and it's just not interesting to keep doing the way it was because they were geniuses!!!11

 

But I don't see any inconsistency with the undead being harmed by the flash bomb. Maybe they did it to give the flash bomb some more versatility, but now we know that the Flash bomb is a major tool without that particular use. So... I don't know where to stand here! Either way is fine

 

Another thing that pops in my mind, about things that could be different from the originals, is the whole surface sound structure. Floor tiles, metal, etc.. it's weird how they came up with these conventions, I'd use something like loose structures like old wood stripes or metal plates (like the ones in TDS) for loud surfaces, for example.

 

BTW, I like the idea of some creature (maybe the zombies) that run away from light (and may be harmed by flash bomb.) This could create some interesting gameplay dynamics.. the player could turn on the lantern to scare away the creature, but doing so may also reveal his position to nearby enemies.

 

..I feel like talking today

[Hyeron]

BTW, I like the idea of some creature (maybe the zombies) that run away from light (and may be harmed by flash bomb.) This could create some interesting gameplay dynamics.. the player could turn on the lantern to scare away the creature, but doing so may also reveal his position to nearby enemies.

GREAT idea!

 

It could be used for horror-based missions... Leaving the player unarmed and with a simple torch/lantern/whatever...

 

 

[Diego]

It's a nice idea, isn't it?.. It's Springheels's idea, I'm just commenting about it.

[Hyeron]

Overlooked that post.

 

But yeah, it's a really, really neat idea.

 

 

[Springheel]

It definitely would mess with the player's head, as suddenly their usual safe zones (darkness) become the threatening places.

[Diego]

I still like it. But the question is: does this creatures see in the dark? Would be weird if they didn't, but bad for gameplay if they do!

 

Unless the mappers don't mix these creatures with other kinds of AI. Then it would be interesting if these creatures also couldn't see in the light.. so the player would have to sneak in the well lit areas!

[Crispy]

Perhaps they're blind, and hunt via smell (so if you're close, they can "see" you, even around corners and regardless of light level; but they can't "see" over long distances) and sound.

 

In other words, they can "see in the dark", and with a very wide "vision" cone, but only with a limited range. So you can still sneak past by keeping your distance and keeping quiet. Assuming you can spot them in the darkness from far enough away...

[AlarusLOL]

 

Obviously, "because Thief did it that way" is reason enough for some people.

 

I could also be unfair and trivialize the argument against it as "lets remove it because it kinda doesn't make sense."

[Neb]

I still like it. But the question is: does this creatures see in the dark? Would be weird if they didn't, but bad for gameplay if they do!

 

Unless the mappers don't mix these creatures with other kinds of AI. Then it would be interesting if these creatures also couldn't see in the light.. so the player would have to sneak in the well lit areas!

 

I think it would work best for a trivial creature, but there's still a risk that it would get too convoluted. Perhaps instead of just light it could be heat sources in general that repels them. You could stand next to a generator and be in the dark for other creatures too.

 

If there's any kind of beast that I would be interested to experiment with (and I might try and get one working when I get around to playing with AI) is a gorgon-like creature from Greek mythology that turns you to stone if you catch a good glimpse of them. I don't have a clue whether it would be fun to play, but I can imagine having to rely on sound only, and if one approaches you have to hide in a corner and keep your eyes against the wall and hope for the best (or just make a run for it).

[Crispy]

The instant-death thing does sound a bit annoying, especially since there'd be no way to fight the creature except via mines (since all other weapons require you to look at what you're targeting). However, I could get behind the idea of a creature that hides in shadows, and normally walks slowly, even when in combat mode, but charges towards you when it notices that you've seen it. So it's not instant death, just very quick death, which can be avoided if you've already prepared to fight the creature.

 

So you'd be walking along past a shadowed area, the creature spots you, makes a distinctive noise (for that "oh shit" moment, and so you know not to look), and you want to look around to see where it's coming from and how close it is but you know that if you do that, it'll strike and you'll die...

 

Best strategy for dealing with them would probably be: leg it, get out your fire arrows, draw one, then quickly turn around, locate the creature, and loose the arrow at it. If you take too long or miss, then you're dead.

[Mortem Desino]

Crispy makes a great example illustrate a good point .

 

I've got flashbombs hotkeyed to "F" on my keyboard at the moment for quick "panic!" moments. Even if a bomb just stalls or lightly damages the creature, It gives me a chance to draw my blade or knock an arrow. I know if I ever hear a "Graaaaggh!" or even a "mrh?" I'm dropping a bomb and hightailing it out of there! (what a silly english idiom)

[Neb]

The instant-death thing does sound a bit annoying, especially since there'd be no way to fight the creature except via mines

 

I guess you could pick up objects and use them to shield your view as you escape, and eventually find a mirror. Still sounds a bit silly though.

 

To throw another random idea out - creatures that only have a shadow mesh and are otherwise invisible. That would scare the hell out of me.

 

 

[Mortem Desino]

WOAH. Create a custom skin that substitutes nodraw for everything except the shadowmesh? That's work great for playing with light and shadow scares!

[Unwanted Guest]

I consider the undead not having eyes( prob the first things to rot as they are mostly water)

 

- be better if they sense you - a spark of life where none should be.

 

They generally home in on this obtrusion into their world of a nothingness death... the closer they get to you the better they home in and the faster they move to their annoyance.

 

And heck, I'm all for them being unkillable 'cause they are already.... well, you know. I'm for slowing them down by weapons that may stagger them for a sec, but not stopping them. Forget killin em, ..if I'm good enough of a theif, I can get away from anything........

 

 

 

m

[thestemmer]

 

BTW, I like the idea of some creature (maybe the zombies) that run away from light (and may be harmed by flash bomb.) This could create some interesting gameplay dynamics.. the player could turn on the lantern to scare away the creature, but doing so may also reveal his position to nearby enemies.

 

..I feel like talking today

 

Just wanted to throw my support behind this idea. It would be a lot of fun, too, if you didn't start the player out with a lantern. Make them search around in the mission for a torch, and force them to set it down somewhere if they have to do something delicate (pick a lock, climb a ledge, etc). You could create some interesting puzzles about getting a lit torch from Point A to Point B to cross the room full of zombies.

 

Does anyone know if, realistically, a torch would go out if you drop it? I imagine it wouldn't, since it's basically a rag soaked with flammable liquid.

[DingDong]

Does anyone know if, realistically, a torch would go out if you drop it? I imagine it wouldn't, since it's basically a rag soaked with flammable liquid.

 

It shouldn't , it's just the fuel being oxidized so as long as there is oxygen and it isn't severely disturbed it should keep burning.

Edited December 11, 2009 by DingDong

[etdarkb]

Because they are supposed to be? If you are seriously asking me for a logical reason why a menacing ghost-skeleton remnant from a sect of sledge-hammer wielding zealots in some quasi-medieval steampunk fantasy world is supposed to be harmed almost to double-death by a 'bomb' of light?... I can't say, for reals.

 

I think, though, that it has to do with wooden stakes and silver bullets and kryptonite.

 

Wow, this is the best answer I ever heard. Maybe the crazy technology of TDM universe put some kind holy ingredients in the flash bombs?

I will personally probably miss this feature: I often used the flash bombs as anti-undead.

 

About the other points, I'd like to show my appreciation about the idea of a `light reversed' creature: blinded by light and capable of seeing in the dark... Imagine the effect: `oh, someone coming... go in the dark corner.'

`Join us human!'

`No, wait... what?' -biosignal lost.

 

I could be add a total new level of challenge, overall if mixed with `standard sight' undeads.

Edited December 15, 2009 by etdarkb

[etdarkb]

So, if I understood correctly in the next release of TDM we'll have the Undeads. If so, I have a question: will zombies drown as they did in Thief?

I have this question because I have an idea about a map...

[Springheel]

If they do, it's a bug.

[etdarkb]

You mean: `they should not, but they might if there is a bug'? (sorry, language barrier)

[Arcturus]

What if some priest consecrated the water? 

[Springheel]

You mean: `they should not, but they might if there is a bug'?

 

Yes. I don't know exactly what the behaviour is right now...they might actually drown. I don't believe that is intended behaviour, however. Now that you mention it, however, I have a vague memory of debating this in the development forums.