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Backwards triangle in input


Garreth

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Now it seems like doom crashes when i try, to dmap my map, 2 warning messages say backwards triangle in input and maybe more errors cannot see it cause it HANGS aaaa help blink.gif

 

I fixed it by removing some floors that where intefeering with eachother and a realy large grass plane, but still i get the warnings.

Edited by Garreth
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Taf you, you taffin taffer

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As your map gets more and more complex, there's a chance that the screen will hang. Do not worry, the dmap is still working. If you are patient, the map compile will finish.

 

About your backwards triangle warning. Keep in mind that it is only a warning. If something says "ERROR:" then you've got a problem. What's happening is the dmapper is actually optimizing away that bad triangle. It's not your fault at all, that's why you compile the map.

yay seuss crease touss dome in ouss nose tair

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  • 1 month later...

SO how long are these warnings supposed to go on for? I've just been dmapping and had the same warning come up. I checked the forums and stumbled across this thread, so I thought I'd wait it out and let TDM do its thing. I waited over 5 minutes and still the thing hadn't finished dmapping - just endless 'backwards triangle' warnings wacko.gif

 

I'm only testing out my map, so it's not overly large. It's one room, basically empty, and not even a particularly big room. Surely it shouldn't take very long to dmap. huh.gif

 

 

 

 

"We were travelling in the night of first ages, of those ages that are gone, leaving hardly a sign — and no memories" - Joseph Conrad, Heart of Darkness

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SO how long are these warnings supposed to go on for? I've just been dmapping and had the same warning come up. etc

 

Which error(s) are the ones showing?

If you can upload the map somewhere Im sure one of us will know whats going on.

 

Backwards and degenerate triangles should just flash past while dmapping as they are ignored/optimized out...

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Backwards and degenerate triangles should just flash past while dmapping as they are ignored/optimized out...

 

 

I've had not errors, just the "WARNING: backwards triangle...[blah]". TDM appears to still be running, in that the cursor still flashes, but the warnings just keep coming thick and fast. When I CTRL+ALT+DEL, Doom 3 appears to not be responding. I suspect that what is happening is either that backwards triangles are being ignored/optimised but there happen to be a gajillion of them, or that at some point the dmap freezes up, mid-flow.

 

Incidentally, what is a backwards triangle? Are they a result of something I've done in the map? If so, how can I fix them manually?

"We were travelling in the night of first ages, of those ages that are gone, leaving hardly a sign — and no memories" - Joseph Conrad, Heart of Darkness

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These two links should help with what they mean and for future ref:

doom3world

modwiki

 

So it seems your geometry is getting the compiler stuck in some kind of loop. Most degen or backwards triangles are caused if you make detailed brushwork at a very low grid size, giving rounding issues or making the compiler confuse surfaces. If you have worked at low grid sizes (0.125/0.25 in specific) you can try the following:

  • Backup your map file.
  • Select all brushes etc in the map.
  • Press V and go into vertex mode.
  • Select all the vertices by being zoomed out and dragging a selection over all of them.
  • Set the grid size to 1.
  • Click "Align to grid".

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If Doom 3 somehow loses focus (like if you're in windowed mode, or you alt-tab to another process) or when your map size gets larger, dmap will only appear to have frozen. Be patient and let it finish up. Dmapper has never truly frozen for me in the two years I've mapped in TDM.

 

Concerning your backwards triangles, do not worry about them. Even simple box rooms can get a backwards triangle generated. They won't affect the finished map, nor will it overflow the dmapper. The same applies with "Node without volume." Those warnings won't make any difference because these are only warnings. Actual Errors, on the other hand, mean that something is wrong.

yay seuss crease touss dome in ouss nose tair

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  • 1 month later...

Concerning your backwards triangles, do not worry about them. Even simple box rooms can get a backwards triangle generated. They won't affect the finished map.

 

my butt it wont affect it. for some reason i got some backwards triangles on a brush cone i created, and it started cutting out triangular pieces out of the cone in-game, making sections of it invisible. I deleted the cone, backwards triangles went away. not the only time its happened either, and i worry that i'm going to get a tiny invisible pinsize backwards triangle holes in my small clipped brushes that will ruin my portalling.

 

even if it doesn't ruin portalling, having work i did turn invisible ingame for no reason is infuriating. and last i checked, a backwards triangle is still a triangle, damnit!! stupid dmap...

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my butt it wont affect it. for some reason i got some backwards triangles on a brush cone i created, and it started cutting out triangular pieces out of the cone in-game, making sections of it invisible. I deleted the cone, backwards triangles went away. not the only time its happened either, and i worry that i'm going to get a tiny invisible pinsize backwards triangle holes in my small clipped brushes that will ruin my portalling.

 

even if it doesn't ruin portalling, having work i did turn invisible ingame for no reason is infuriating. and last i checked, a backwards triangle is still a triangle, damnit!! stupid dmap...

 

1: Conical brushes\patches need to be turned into func_static. You should never leave any hi-poly primitives as worldspawn.

2: therefore, your butt does affect dmap compiler. :P

yay seuss crease touss dome in ouss nose tair

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1: Conical brushes\patches need to be turned into func_static. You should never leave any hi-poly primitives as worldspawn.

2: therefore, your butt does affect dmap compiler. :P

 

:o!

 

 

 

 

 

.... lol well played, sir. hmm, i must of missed that tidbit on the wiki somewhere. i got quite a few hi poly worldspawns to cover. this helps, thanks.

 

edit: I take it all back! both my butt and I are reverting to our previous position on the issue. here is a SS of my newest func_static, made up of a bunch of brushes.

th_bad_triangle.jpg

 

the problem area is adjacent to a simulated brush cone, which i designed from a bunch of brushes.

Edited by ungoliant
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Oh wow. :huh: Could I take a look at the map? The reason might be in your construction method ("degenerate triangles removed"?). Somehow they're being optimized away, but it's not because of backwards triangles.

 

(bytheway: If that SS is going to be an attic, it's already looking pretty cool.)

yay seuss crease touss dome in ouss nose tair

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Oh wow. :huh: Could I take a look at the map? The reason might be in your construction method ("degenerate triangles removed"?). Somehow they're being optimized away, but it's not because of backwards triangles.

 

(bytheway: If that SS is going to be an attic, it's already looking pretty cool.)

 

yes you can, but its too large to attach here, and the PM / email options in your profile don't seem to have an attachment option, so i dont really know how to get it to you atm, let me know how. degenerate triangles didn't show on dmap or map.

 

and yes thats an attic area, and i'm telling you what, fleshing out the interior of that thing was a serious bitch. its viewable from outside and inside. had to be done by separating all the brushes created into 2 logical areas, cloning 1 of the areas, then csg subracting area 1 from 2, then bringing in the clone of area 1 and subtracting 2 from 1, and deleting all the original pieces i didn't want that were hanging off the intersection of the 2 areas. BUT the interection of the 2 original areas is perma-deleted, and i kinda needed it, so i had to create a clone of the original 2 areas, place it over the result of the subtract operations, then select the result and subtract the orignal copy from it to get the the original interection pieces of the first subtract operations and overlay it on the original subtract operations and delete the rest. never thought venn diagrams would actually work for something my life.

 

on a side note, while your looking at it, i sealed up that room and have been trying to visportal it (my very first one, yay) to check for leaks, but the durned visportal wont even work, doesn't show with r_showportals 1 enabled, and i'm 100% positive that the portalled face is entirely surrounded by worldspawn brushes, as you'll see when you look. can you tell me whats wrong w/ it? (as soon as i figure out how to get it to you)

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had to be done by separating all the brushes created into 2 logical areas, cloning 1 of the areas, then csg subracting area 1 from 2, then bringing in the clone of area 1 and subtracting 2 from 1, and deleting all the original pieces i didn't want that were hanging off the intersection of the 2 areas. BUT the interection of the 2 original areas is perma-deleted, and i kinda needed it, so i had to create a clone of the original 2 areas, place it over the result of the subtract operations, then select the result and subtract the orignal copy from it to get the the original interection pieces of the first subtract operations and overlay it on the original subtract operations and delete the rest.

:wacko:

 

Ouch; Quite the convoluted method, isn't it? There's one thing I've got to mention.

csg subracting
CSG subtract is a fantastic tool, but it's not friendly enough to be used for more than square-shaped holes, doorways, or windows. It's a common misconception to treat it like an old-timey "air brush".

 

 

 

What probably happened is that there's some stray tris fooling the dmapper into thinking they should be optimized away.

 

I'd recommend instead using conical patches. One of them can face outside, and you can "invert" a patch to make it show on the inside.

 

Then its a question of how to seal it up with brushes for visportaling. You might be able to recycle all of your existing stuff, texturing it all with "caulk", and just roughly "wallpaper" it with the aforementioned conical patches.

yay seuss crease touss dome in ouss nose tair

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:wacko:

 

Ouch; Quite the convoluted method, isn't it? There's one thing I've got to mention. CSG subtract is a fantastic tool, but it's not friendly enough to be used for more than square-shaped holes, doorways, or windows. It's a common misconception to treat it like an old-timey "air brush".

 

 

 

What probably happened is that there's some stray tris fooling the dmapper into thinking they should be optimized away.

 

I'd recommend instead using conical patches. One of them can face outside, and you can "invert" a patch to make it show on the inside.

 

Then its a question of how to seal it up with brushes for visportaling. You might be able to recycle all of your existing stuff, texturing it all with "caulk", and just roughly "wallpaper" it with the aforementioned conical patches.

 

lol funny story about that: http://modetwo.net/d...post__p__212689

 

I decided to go with brushes for 2 main reasons:

1) theres more than one of these attic type areas with cones, and they're all going to have square mini-tower windows jutting out of the conical part, and this is impossible with patches considering that these attics are playable from the inside and the outside. (i refuse to sacrifice my artistic vision)

 

2) portalling. considering the complex nature of these roofs, what i have now would have to be built anyway... and its broke, and needs fixing. these attic areas must be portalled.

 

and i still dont know if these backwards triangles or optimizations or whatever are going to ruin the portalling, so with or without patches, this problem still needs to be resolved. and trust me i need this fixed and portalled because the exterior of this mansion is, shall we say, performance intensive. I can't have the player looking out into space from the attic, and i need this thing portalled properly, and dmap is f'ing me over bad. i dont know if its the backwards triangles or optimization or whatever. all i know is it sucks and i'm lost.

 

help meeeee

 

edit: the problem is even worse than i thought. i reloaded a backup copy from before i func_static'ed the roof, and there were degenerate triangles. func_staticing somehow removed these degenerate triangles but also somehow CREATED all the extra holes. even the pre-func_static version still has at least one hole (that i know of) thats viewable ingame from the inside of the room but not outside, but func_statici'ing made the problem worse......???? . now i'm SUPER-confused and pissed.

 

i haven't been this frustrated since i ran into unsolvable ambient lighting problems in the A-Z guide following instructions word for word.

Edited by ungoliant
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It sounds like you are trying to do something very advanced and difficult which most of us would struggle with so I can understand the frustration.

 

Dmapping is complex. Sometimes Doom 3 just cannot dmap perfectly in every situation; you get black holes and you have to rework it differently or patch over them. If you have the basic setup how you want it and are reluctant to rebuild it differently then try a compromise: Place a brush over the black spot and invent something for it: a beam, a painting, whatever and don't worry about it being 'perfect' with zero 'bad this' or 'bad that'

 

If you can get that bit done to your satisfaction then I recommend you test it is sealed before you proceed. I don't know the details but I'm assuming you are building a tower inside a space inside a volume that is sealed from the void. If the tower leaks you will not get an error so you need to force an error. Brick up doors and any openable windows and read up http://wiki.thedarkmod.com/index.php?title=Performance:_Essential_Must-Knows#Internal_Leaks

 

I repeat, the above is not easy and progress may be slow and frustrating. We all get that. But you learn from it and other areas of your FM will progress faster generally. You just cannot get even progress in all areas.

 

Just keep posting if you cannot solve it. As a last resort you can upload your map somewhere and ask if someone will look at it then pm them the url.

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thanks fid. i did end up redesigning this roof by resizing things before clipping everything in order to minimize new brushes created and crazy angles produced. this seemed to work, and the end product is good, very few backwards triangles, and no degenerates, everything renders good.

 

however, i took a read through the link you provided on leaks, and realized that I am completely and utterly screwed.

 

When i first started mapping this mission, i solved a pathfinding problem where i had achieved the max surfaces in an area that an AI could handle for pathfinding by converting my circular tower brushes (theres a lot, each tower portion was originally about 20 brushes straight up and down, and theres 6 windows in each, used clipper to slice up the brushes for ALL of them) into func_statics. this cut down the problem into something manageable.

 

upon reading this article, i now realize that i cannot create func_statics out of ANY of my exterior walls / roofs of the mansion because they are designed to portal the external yard area from the internal mansion areas, which apparently they CANNOT do as func_statics. and i've only designed the front wall so far(!), and now i have to revert everything back to worldspawn to portal all this stuff. i'm over the max already, and i've still got 3+ exterior walls with more towers still to design, not to mention the funky roofs. i'm completely fucked and i'm at a loss as to how i can even continue.... has it all been for nothing?

:(

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I just wanted to mention some of you are saying you waited an entire 5 mins!

 

Depending on your computer specs and map size it can take a long time to compile a map. Often I compile my maps then go dosomething else while they compile. I've had it compile around 15-25 mins. It sits on one thing doing it for about 10-15 mins then it shoots off at 1000fps doing stuff. After it write the .proc file and then sits in the menu for a good 5 mins at 0 fps. I've never had doom3's compiler lock up. I've had it crash to malloc error's but that's it and it's quite noticable because it pops up with a blue screen.

 

So maybe next time make a sandwhich and if it's still stuck when you come back 10 mins later then perhaps something is wrong.

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ungoliant: First try the sandwich method. This means making thin (not too thin maybe 2 or 4 units thick) caulk brushes inside the func_static walls. One way to possibly speed that up is this:

 

First make a biggish grid size say 8 so you can see the clone movement

clone one func_static. It will move down and right (unless you have this feature turned off) so move it back up and left where it was.

While still selected revert it to worldspawn and give it caulk texture.

You might actually try that in game to see if it shows. I never done it myself. :laugh: (anyone know?)

If the caulk shows:

Reduce the grid size to 1.

Reduce the caulk brush just inside the func static so it doesn't show.

 

You get the idea. You are building an unrendered tower inside the other one. The caulk will seal the tower.

 

When done, hide all the func_statics and examine the caulk tower. Any gaps? It must be sealed. Any visportal in a doorway must reach or penetrate this caulk not the func_static. So you finish up with a totally sealed rough tower of caulk and visportals.

 

If in a mess, upload it somewhere, and pm me the url and I'll have a look at it.

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interesting. i tried the straight carbon copy method, as resizing those towers with 6 windows would be a very daunting task.

 

interestingly enough, tdm seems to take the func_static as the monster clip area, and the caulk does not show at all, no zfighting or anything... even with noclip on i went inside the walls, and i cannot find a trace of this caulk.

 

i'm not convinced that the caulk clone is sealing anything since it doesn't seem to have rendered, so i'm going to test it for leaks as soon as i figure out how to find the first entity i created...

 

edit: it seals! i'm saved! now to test that attic area... *cross fingers*... IT WORKS!!!! MUAHAHAHAHAAAAA!!!! edit: I <3 MD he is awesome! crazy ass csg subtract operations FTW!! WEEEEEEEE!!!

 

thanks for the assist you guys. heres some eye candy of the inside and outside of my fully rendered and sealed southeast wing attic:

 

th_attic_int.jpg

 

th_attic_ext.jpg

Edited by ungoliant
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edit: it seals! i'm saved! now to test that attic area... *cross fingers*... IT WORKS!!!! MUAHAHAHAHAAAAA!!!! take that, MD! crazy ass csg subtract operations FTW!! WEEEEEEEE!!!

 

Smiley face? Sad face? I don't know whether to be very proud of you or slightly insulted. :D

yay seuss crease touss dome in ouss nose tair

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