A couple of suggestions for TDM/Dark Radiant

[etdarkb]

D3 cannot, but the user is the one who writes `doom3 +set fs_game_base darkmod +set fs_game mission' and he can.

[Tels]

D3 cannot, but the user is the one who writes `doom3 +set fs_game_base darkmod +set fs_game mission' and he can.

 

I don't think you understand the problem. If you start:

 

'doom3 +set fs_game_base darkmod +set fs_game mission'

 

and then install "AnotherMission" inside TDM, how could D3 restart itself to make:

 

'doom3 +set fs_game_base darkmod +set fs_game AnotherMission'

 

It can't - and that is why we need tdmlauncher to start D3 with the correct parameters. Otherwise, the user would always manually need to readjust the command line parameters. That is the job of tdmlauncher.

[etdarkb]

My point is that is not a problem at all, it changing parameters to start programs is the norm.

[Tels]

My point is that is not a problem at all, it changing parameters to start programs is the norm.

 

Erm, not really. It is impossible for the program to restart itself with different parameters, and why should the user take care of that, and that *everytime he wants to play a different mission*? That is exactly the sort of things that can and should be automated, and tdmlauncher solves that problem for us nicely.

 

You wouldn't know how many people would be utterly lost on creating a shortcut or modifying it - and even people who know how to, like me, can't be arsed to do that everytime. I'd rather play TDM.

 

So, yeah, I fail to see why we should remove tdmlauncher and let the player do things manually...

[etdarkb]

No wait... in general a program can restart itself with different parameters: just alter argv and use execv(argv[0], argv) without any fork().

The point is you cannot change the doom3 executable to do this, and even it might be possible it would be extremely difficult.

So far so good: tdmlauncher take care of the problem. I never said you should remove it. No really, I did not.

 

But it really seems that instead of

1- start darkmod without any mission,

2- select the mission,

3- restart.

 

Loading doom3 twice. You can

1- start the dark mod directly with the mission you want.

 

It is simpler, but... again... I never said you should remove the launcher: for example if you do not know exactly what mission you want to play it is nice to use it.

I just think we should tell the users there is a simplier and quicker way.

Edited December 29, 2009 by etdarkb

[Fidcal]

It has just sunk into my brain that what has been said here is similar to what I proposed a while back but it was not implemented. My idea was to have the FM list in tdmlauncher itself so you select and it launches doom3 with the appropriate args (much like a shortcut.) This would be more like Darkloader or Garretloader. In fact a third party program like those could do this to replace tdmlauncher. To be compatible it only needs to read/write the current fm to darkmod\currentfm.txt

 

It could have radio button options such as Window/Full screen mode, dis/enable console, and so on. Edit Doomconfig.

[Komag]

That's how I would definitely prefer it, separate loader program. It just bugs the heck out of me that Doom 3 has to open twice. I know it's basically the same difference, but it just FEELS wrong, dangit!

[SneaksieDave]

I preferred the pre-loader originally, but now I quite like that it's handled in TDM.

 

TDM is much prettier than Darkloader. And, the restart takes literally 1-2 seconds here.

[New Horizon]

Our TDM loader feels far more professional to me. Everything is integrated within the menu, otherwise it really wouldn't feel completely like TDM was separated from D3.

 

I know we all played thief with an external loader, but I don't think we should have to go that far in replicating the fm experience. On my old system, it really doesn't take that much longer to reload when I select a new map.

 

It's probably something that can be streamlined to not require a reload when the D3 source code is released.

[Melan]

I see one potential problem - after a few years, FMs might pile up to the extent that scrolling through will be a hassle.

 

Then again, someone can also fix this problem two years down the line.

[New Horizon]

I see one potential problem - after a few years, FMs might pile up to the extent that scrolling through will be a hassle.

Then again, someone can also fix this problem two years down the line.

 

Well, that's just it. It is sufficient for what we need now, but I'm sure it can be improved as needed. It's a slick, professional looking, loading system. I wouldn't want it any other way.

[lowenz]

Here's my suggestions!

 

*Fixed Loading Screen image&fonts for every mission -> More polished and "professional" look

IMHO the "perfect" style is the "Trapped!" map one.

 

*Door handles of EVERY door (the blocked ones too) can be "graspable" (with the classic sound)

 

*Candles can be turned off blowing on them (as in TDS)

 

*Paintings canvas can be taken (as in TDS)

Edited December 31, 2009 by lowenz

[New Horizon]

*Candles can be turned off blowing on them (as in TDS)

 

They already can be snuffed out. While holding the candle, hit the use key.

 

*Paintings canvas can be taken (as in TDS)

 

That is up to the mapper. TDS only allowed it on specific paintings, TDM would be no different.

[Serpentine]

Here's my suggestions!

 

*Fixed Loading Screen image&fonts for every mission -> More polished and "professional" look

IMHO the "perfect" style is the "Trapped!" map one.

*Door handles of EVERY door (the blocked ones too) can be "graspable" (with the classic sound)

*Candles can be turned off blowing on them (as in TDS)

*Paintings canvas can be taken (as in TDS)

 

Loading screen : I do agree that perhaps some layout would be nice for name/author.

Door handles : Its been discussed many times, its up to the mapper to choose what he wants to do.

Candles : You can snub them out by frobbing them and then pressing 'use', so like you're going to pick up then use. (This will be explained in training on the next release(hopefully)) Alternatively, I sometimes use things like fruit to throw at them, knocking them away/over.

Canvas loot : Its not very hard to do and is up to the mapper, I guess I could knock up a few prefabricated ones.

 

As for the external launcher - Since you dont actually need TDM Team members to do any of this at all, I'm sure if it was constructed and was slick enough it would be taken quite seriously, I would certainly like it!, just remember it has to be portable and cant use any bulky graphical toolkit - no gtk/qt/.net

[Springheel]

Loading screen : I do agree that perhaps some layout would be nice for name/author.

 

We have a couple default ones, but Loading screens are chosen by the mapper.

[Fidcal]

'Fixed' loading screen? You mean the same for everyone? FM makers create their own loading screen - there are some defaults available but essentially they have the choice to make their own. And we can't stop them.

 

Ditto door handles. It's entirely up to the FM maker. We provide a choice of default door handles and sounds. They can pick and choose or make their own. We cannot stop them.

 

A wide range of candles can be snuffed out. It's entirely up to the FM maker what they use.

 

Canvas paintings taken from frame (I think you mean.) There is no default provided but this idea I proposed long ago. This is possible. Needs a model maker to make a blank frame(s) and a flat model with multiple skins using the current art plus a new entity defined to include a rolled up painting inventory icon. But, you guessed it, it will be up to the FM maker which they use.

[Serpentine]

We have a couple default ones, but Loading screens are chosen by the mapper.

 

Fair enough, I havent quite got around to that yet

 

I actually did think about editing that out of my post as I do think for a lot of maps the freedom of the loading screen is a very nice personal touch. But then I forgot to do that

[lowenz]

They already can be snuffed out. While holding the candle, hit the use key.

 

 

 

That is up to the mapper. TDS only allowed it on specific paintings, TDM would be no different.

Perfect

[Ishtvan]

Regarding the arrow velocity, it is fairly accurate. I set it based on this site ( http://www.kmtargets.com/kmtargets_physics.aspx ), which gave a number of 56 meters/second. Obviously this is going to vary a lot with the specifics of the bow, but this calculation assumed a 40 # draw, recurve, which seems reasonable for the shortbow our thief uses. 56 meters per second gives 2210 doom units / second (assuming 1 doom unit = 1 inch). This is the arrow launch velocity we're using.

 

[EDIT: This calculation also assumed modern materials, meaning it probably over-estimated the speed a bit. Maybe the thief's bow draw is a bit higher than 40 #, but the launch speed is the same due to lower efficiency and higher arrow weight.]

 

When we first set this up, people did in fact complain that it was too fast. In fact, there was concern that an arrow this fast would make it too easy to kill guards, and I had to argue that it wouldn't, since guards can have helmets, and you have to aim for an area that's not covered by armor. In the public response to the alpha release, we often heard "arrows seemed too fast at first, but I got used to it."

 

These posts coming several years later are the first I've seen saying that arrows are too slow. We definitely can't please everyone.

[Tels]

Regardless on wether the arrows are slower or not, it will kill the guard - they simply don't have the reaction time to doge an oncoming arrow (probably no human has

[Ishtvan]

Regardless on wether the arrows are slower or not, it will kill the guard - they simply don't have the reaction time to doge an oncoming arrow (probably no human has

The argument was that it's harder to lead a moving target with a slower-moving arrow (like Thief 2 arrows). Especially when the target can randomly zig and zag while searching. This is true, but we offset the ease that comes with faster arrows by using accurate armor detection to reduce the size of the target you have to hit.

[Tels]

The argument was that it's harder to lead a moving target with a slower-moving arrow (like Thief 2 arrows). Especially when the target can randomly zig and zag while searching. This is true, but we offset the ease that comes with faster arrows by using accurate armor detection to reduce the size of the target you have to hit.

 

Ah, that might be true, but would the arrow speed really make much of a difference? (My guess would be that even a slower arrow would be still quite fast, but I could be mistaken). Anyway, I opt not to change the speed (if that wasn't clear already

[Ishtvan]

It would be harder if the arrow were slower because the guard would be more likely to randomly change directions before the time it would take the arrow to reach the spot you anticipated his face/eye would be.

[SneakyJack]

Obviously the undead are being worked on but I noticed that "Steambeasts" were mentioned in the wiki article and we have yet to see them used in a mission at all.. are they already a part of TDM's assets for folks to use in missions or are they something yet to be created for it?

 

I notice mentions of steambeasts, pagans, inventors guild, mages, necromancers and so on and I didn't know if these were already in the package for authors to put in their missions or something that will be added in the future - right now folks seem to be sticking to the nobles and guards setup so it made me curious.

Edited January 4, 2010 by SneakyJack

[Mortem Desino]

Well, Diego donated a beautiful pagan model that needs cleanup, rigging, some code support, an entity definition, etc. There's a serious lack of manpower, and some are running thin of motivation.