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Things that could be improved


Berny

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Having now twice launched 1.04 to download a new mission (RTTCv2 and The Transaction) and being met with an incomplete list, I realize that the system of getting the new ones propagated is (understandably) not ironed out... but it brings me to a request: can we have the list that is displayed also show the date of release? And make the list sortable on that if the heading of that column is clicked?

 

Also, As a request to FMAs: can you try to make the version number of your missions show up in the list? I think it only requires that you specify it in the "Title" line of the "darkmod.txt" that goes along with your mission.

 

Thanks

 

...

 

Oh, and I know there are those that say dates should go MM-DD-YYYY ('Yanks' and the like ) and there are those that say it should be DD-MM-YYYY ('Brits' and the like).

 

But the truth is it needs to go YYYY-MM-DD. From now until evermore. Most significant to least significant. EOS. Thanks again.

Edited by Aprilsister
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Don't automatically restart when you install or uninstall a mission. I know you have to restart to finish installing/uninstalling, but let the user decide when. What I mean is, when they install/uninstall, tell them "The mission will be installed/uninstalled when TDM restarts", then give them 2 options:

 

1) restart

2) quit

 

If they quit, the mission will finish installing/uninstalling the next time they start TDM.

 

I'm noticing several use-cases that come up fairly regularly where I wish I had the ability to do this. For example, when I finish a mission, sometimes I want to uninstall it or even install the next mission I plan to play, but I don't want to play again right away. So I should be able to start installing/uninstalling, and then just quit. There's no need to quit, automatically restart, only to then quit again. It's cumbersome and time-consuming on older systems.

 

For another example, I just uninstalled a mission, with the intention of deleting it when after I quited. But I had to uninstall, automatically restart, then quit again. Hypothetically, if I could simply uninstall then quit, would it be okay to delete the mission, without restarting and quiting again first? Or would that break something?

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Well, I have kind of worked a semi-fix for what I wanted as far as a way to alternate between hold-crouch and bounce-crouch... along with some other things that help in getting nice screen shots and quick FPS counts:

 

binds! (keybinds)

 

Binds work with apparently any console command thus:

 

bind "g" tdm_hud_hide_lightgem "0"

bind "h" tdm_hud_hide_lightgem "1"

bind "f" com_showFPS "1"

bind "c" com_showFPS "0"

bind "w" tdm_toggle_crouch "0"

bind "s" tdm_toggle_crouch "1"

 

Those particular keys I've chosen "g, h, f, c, w, s" (gem hide frames clear downupdownup stick) work for my mnemonically minded mentality, but of course can be adjusted to adhere to any alien adaptation accordingly.

 

...

 

Still hoping that the read-ables get a true manipul-ability; and even that the pockets/backpack inventory system is also implemented.

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What's the point of allowing player to drop starting equipment at the shop? Is it a way to "cement" voluntary challenges by just getting rid of the equipment?

 

Does the mapper have any control over this?

 

We secretly loaded "The Thieves" by Silencium et al. and dropped all the damage-dealing equipment. In this mission your chief objective is to kill the enemy leader. We were then able to proceed to Mission Loading, although it crashed.

 

I can imagine future maps might require the use of certain arrows or something to complete a puzzle.

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What's the point of allowing player to drop starting equipment at the shop? Is it a way to "cement" voluntary challenges by just getting rid of the equipment?

 

Yes.

 

Does the mapper have any control over this?

 

Yes. :)

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I hope I won't have any opposition if say Thief 1/2 is not a perfect game in every detail, and great as it is, there are some things that could be improved. If you agree with me this far, then let me tell you one thing I think dark mod could do better.

 

In thief and dark mod 1.04, merely cycling through your inventory makes you more visible and can give you away. For example, as you cycle past your sword or a fire arrow on your way to selecting a key, you're briefly illuminated while the sword or fire arrow is cycling past, and this can alert enemies. This should not be the case. Cycling to an item in your inventory should not affect your visibility at all.

 

However, using an item can still affect your visibility. Let me be clear - readying your sword or drawing a fire arrow back on your bow should still make you more visible, but you should not become more visible merely be cycling to that item in your inventory.

 

The inventory is an abstract way of managing your items. Of course, in reality they're in your backpack, your quiver, the sheath at your side, hooked to your belt, etc. There is no sequential list of items or "inventory" in any physical sense. Cycling through your inventory is an contrivance of the game interface. We'd all agree on this, right?

 

It makes no sense that you would, under any circumstances, take out your sword in the process of getting your lock picks ready. None at all. Likewise, there's no reason in the world you'd ever take out a glowing fire arrow and give away your position to a guard when all you mean to do is take out a rope arrow. It's not like your quiver is a queue, and you can only access it by pulling things out of the top and then stuffing them back in the bottom.

 

Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to do away with the ability to cycle through your inventory. I think the ability to cycle through your inventory is an extremely useful, perhaps indispensable part of the game's interface.

 

What I'm saying is: cycling through your inventory should not represent physically taking out and putting away each item in turn. Cycling through your inventory should be an abstract operation, similar to the inventory itself. Cycling past items in your inventory should not make you more visible. It makes the inventory cycle annoying and dangerous to use.

 

For example, when you cycle to a fire arrow, your visibility should not be affected - you're not actually getting a fire arrow out of your quiver at this point. But once you hold down the mouse button to draw the fire arrow back on your bow - now you're getting the fire arrow out, now you become visible. Does that make sense?

 

For another example, when you cycle to your sword, your visibility should not be affected - you should not actually get your sword out at this point. In thief and dark mod 1.04, you do get your sword out at this point - you can see the sword model and the unsheathing animation. This actually creates 2 problems: A your visibility is increased, and B when you continue cycling through your inventory, it takes a few precious moments for the re-sheathing animation to finish, preventing you from using another item right away. I think you should not get your sword out when you cycle to it in inventory - you should have to first cycle to it, then tap the mouse button to unsheath. Does that makes sense?

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I don't think anyone would claim that T1/T2 are perfect, hell that's half the reason TDM exists, but I'd have to disagree with the general thrust of your argument since the weapons are completely separate from the inventory. They aren't accessed through the inventory UI, so you shouldn't assume that the behaviour of weapons would automatically be consistent with inventory items.

 

To address your actual argument about weapon behaviour, the last thing I'd want when a guard is rushing towards me is to have any delay whatsoever in unsheathing the sword. It makes sense that pressing a number for a weapon will equip it, and this includes arrows. When you equip an arrow, you're not only readying the bow but also taking an arrow out of the quiver in preparation for using it, so it's natural that your visibility is affected if using the fire arrow. Holding down the mouse button once equipped is akin to drawing back the string, not taking an arrow out of the quiver, placing it against the draw string and then drawing the bow.

 

Just about every FPS I can think of works the same way, selecting a weapon automatically equips it. Like it or not, I don't think TDM should introduce inconsistency here by breaking from this convention.

 

However, I assume that this is an issue for you since you have presumably mapped your keys to scroll through weapons rather than using the numerical keys to select your weapon, therefore when cycling past a weapon your visibility is increased when not intended. This is a valid concern, I'll leave it to a member of the team to comment on whether this could be improved without altering the standard weapon selection behaviour.

Edited by Midnight
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if it is possible, make the body of blackjacked person fall always with back exposed(after i pick up him and released it down)...in order to see always if he carry somethin with him...

 

or auto-rob a corpse while pick-up/pull a body...or it is too smart?? :)

Edited by guido81
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Nice post Eigenface. You got me to agree with you. TDM does item selection via the standard FPS game style: you press a button and that weapon comes out. I admit that I've tried numerous times to get out a rope arrow, put accidentally took out a fire arrow. This is very typical mistake and very unforgiving.

 

So howsabout a half-life 1 style weapon selection. Cycling the inventory cycles through the inventory icons, but the weapon does not get picked out yet. The player has to press mouse button to bring out the weapon selected. If cycle is not used, but the weapon button is pressed, again the weapon icon appears and mouse button is pressed to confirm the selection.

 

Is someone made a mod/addon, which changes the behavior to this, I would certainly use it as it totally eliminates the fire arrow fumble.

 

Another mod I'd like to see would be lantern mod, which increases the lantern light radius by the factor of 1.5 or 2.0. The current lantern is too dim. You have to bump into things for the lantern to be of use: usually it is easier to carry a lit candle around.

Clipper

-The mapper's best friend.

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There are 2 options either or which seems reasonable to me:

 

1) Require a confirmation click after cycling through the inventory with next/prev item keys, and also require a confirmation click after pressing a weapon number key.

 

2) Only require a confirmation click after cycling through the inventory with next/prev item keys - you may have selected a weapon only because you're cycling past it to the next weapon. Don't require a confirmation click after pressing a weapon number key - assuming if you pressed the number, you really meant it. This would be less forgiving of mistakes with pressing the wrong number, but it would allow you to select weapons faster using the number keys - they become "shortcut" keys.

Edited by eigenface
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if it is possible, make the body of blackjacked person fall always with back exposed(after i pick up him and released it down)...in order to see always if he carry somethin with him...

Yes. If you drop a shouldered body, it will drop on a different side every time you drop it. That's specifically for checking things.

Come the time of peril, did the ground gape, and did the dead rest unquiet 'gainst us. Our bands of iron and hammers of stone prevailed not, and some did doubt the Builder's plan. But the seals held strong, and the few did triumph, and the doubters were lain into the foundations of the new sanctum. -- Collected letters of the Smith-in-Exile, Civitas Approved

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In thief and dark mod 1.04, merely cycling through your inventory makes you more visible and can give you away. For example, as you cycle past your sword or a fire arrow on your way to selecting a key, you're briefly illuminated while the sword or fire arrow is cycling past

 

Your weapons and your keys are in separate "inventories", so that scenario would never happen.

 

So howsabout a half-life 1 style weapon selection. Cycling the inventory cycles through the inventory icons, but the weapon does not get picked out yet.

 

I personally would not want to use a system like that. I already have enough trouble trying to quickly switch to the weapon I need under pressure. Adding an extra click to the mix would make things even more awkward.

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Enter option 2, the best of both worlds:

2) Only require a confirmation click after cycling through the inventory with next/prev item keys - you may have selected a weapon only because you're cycling past it to the next weapon. Don't require a confirmation click after pressing a weapon number key - assuming if you pressed the number, you really meant it. This would be less forgiving of mistakes with pressing the wrong number, but it would allow you to select weapons faster using the number keys - they become "shortcut" keys.

Edited by eigenface
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"Your weapons and your keys are in separate "inventories", so that scenario would never happen."

You're right, my mistake. But my argument still applies. Just replace "key" in my sentence with "water arrow" or "broadhead arrow" or anything that affects your visibility less than the fire arrow or sword.

You wouldn't necessarily have to redo the whole inventory system to fix this, either. You would only really have to make 2 changes:

 

1) Items do not affect your visibility when you merely select them in inventory; they only affect visibility when you use the item. For example, a fire arrow does not affect your visibility when you select it (regardless of whether you use next/prev or a number key), but the fire arrow does affect your visibility when you use it (hold the mouse button to draw it back on the bow.) So basically, you'd have to move the visibility-change from item select to item use. And one special case:

 

2) The sword is not draw when you select it with next/prev (if you want, it is drawn when you press the sword number key.) After you select the sword with next/prev, you click to draw it. You only need this confirmation click with the sword (and perhaps only when you select it with next/prev.)

 

I prefer the consistency of a fully half-life-like inventory system with a confirmation click for every weapon select, but if that's going to be a problem, the middle ground I just described seems like it would make the UI better without really sacrificing anything.

 

This way, cycling through your abstract inventory does not affect in-game events, such as guards noticing you. Regardless of the specific implementation involved, do you agree with the basic idea that the inventory system is abstract, and merely cycling through it to find the weapon you want should not alert guards in the process?

Edited by eigenface
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Here's an alternate "middle ground", which may be simpler and more intuitive than the one I just described. There are no special cases - the sword is treated the same as all the other weapons. There are 2 steps to readying a weapon:

 

A Select - this changes the weapon icon in your inventory HUD, but does not change the on-screen weapon model or your visibility

B Confirm - this changes the on-screen weapon model and affects your visibility

 

The next/prev keys only do A, that is, they only cycle through the weapon icons in your HUD. Then you click to do B, confirm, which switches to the correct weapon model and affects you visibility.

 

The weapon number keys do both A and B, they select and confirm with one key press, that is, they change the weapon icon in your HUD, change the model, and affect your visibility.

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It's unlikely we're going to redesign the system at this stage. :) We're heading into version 1.05. The goal now is to finish planned features, and refine / improve what we've already finished.

 

Oh well.. ^_^

 

Eigen, if you really want that feature, you could always learn to mod the mod and make your own improved UI modification for tdm. I'd use it... Unless I happen to learn which number button brings out which arrow before the mod comes out. :laugh: Or maybe I should add a red sticker to the fire arrow key on my keyboard. That's the only one which makes the mistake unforgivable. :D

Clipper

-The mapper's best friend.

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This way, cycling through your abstract inventory does not affect in-game events, such as guards noticing you. Regardless of the specific implementation involved, do you agree with the basic idea that the inventory system is abstract, and merely cycling through it to find the weapon you want should not alert guards in the process?

 

In reality, you don't need to cycle through your weapons, they're all assigned specific numbers on the keyboard. What you're suggesting is essentially coding what we could already be doing with our brain. Decide what weapon we wish to use, and then confirm it by pressing the appropriate button. ;)

 

I use the hotkeys (1 - 9) to select my weapons and usually keep my blackjack out. Personally, I would find adding another layer to the menu system somewhat cumbersome.

 

You never know though, someone may decide to code a third party add on that will do exactly what you're suggesting. :) I don't see it being in the cards for us since we spent the time designing and implementing the current system to be pretty light weight.

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if it is possible, make the body of blackjacked person fall always with back exposed(after i pick up him and released it down)...in order to see always if he carry somethin with him...

 

or auto-rob a corpse while pick-up/pull a body...or it is too smart?? :)

You can turn a body over by frobbing it and while you are hanging on to it in the drag position, press the 'use' control to 'shoulder' the body. Each time you drop it the body is turned over so just pick it up again and drop to see the other side.

 

There are different ways to attach an item to a body. I'm not sure if an auto-pickpocket would work in Dark Mod. In any case it is kind of against the principles of Dark Mod: 'real physics', 'true interaction where possible', 'avoiding symbolism', 'avoiding hand-holding' etc, etc. The teams' decision was to get the player to examine the body rather than just press a button.

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"In reality, you don't need to cycle through your weapons, they're all assigned specific numbers on the keyboard."

 

So are you saying it's okay for the next/prev cycle to alert guards, because you don't have to use the next/prev cycle? Why include the next/prev cycle at all then, if you're not supposed to use it because it's not supposed to be safe? I find next/prev more convenient than weapon number keys in time-sensitive situations, because I don't have to take my hand off WASD, look down at the keyboard number keys, and then reorient my fingers on WASD again. If you're including the next/prev cycle at all, it shouldn't give away your position.

 

I can see this discussion is going in the direction of "Nobody cares, implement it yourself if you really want it." I will if I get time. Right now, I just wanted to give my opinion on "Things that could be improved".

Edited by eigenface
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I can see this discussion is going in the direction of "Nobody cares, implement it yourself if you really want it." I will if I get time. Right now, I just wanted to give my opinion on "Things that could be improved".

 

I think it's more like, "It's not a particularly big concern and there's no easy and noncontroversial way to fix it, so it's not likely to be addressed anytime soon."

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So are you saying it's okay for the next/prev cycle to alert guards, because you don't have to use the next/prev cycle? Why include the next/prev cycle at all then, if you're not supposed to use it because it's not supposed to be safe?

 

Nope, I'm not suggesting that at all. I'm only saying that what you were proposing is like a simulated layer of what we can do already.

 

Why complicate matters with an extra step when it can be done more discretely?

 

Rather than create a new system, I would simply add a delay to the light gem penalty for weapons so the penalty isn't added until the 'equip' animation finishes playing, and the weapon is fully equipped. That way, you can cycle through with no worries. :)

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A delay is a good fix NH. It essentially keeps the same system while skipping over the problem quickly which is what cycling is.

 

I must admit I think eigenface has a point and I'm surprised I never was aware of it in all these years of Thief. I always use the number keys anyway so it doesn't affect me but it does seem a bit of a mistake to highlight the player when essentially he's just selecting something.

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