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Things that could be improved


Berny

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I wasn't aware that this is possible either! In other games running automatically have you stand up.

 

That's what separates regular games from something considered an "immersive sim". Normally in games, when you press the "move faster" button while crouched, your character stands up and runs. In immersive sims, you have a button for changing a stance, and moving faster/slower. When you press the "move faster" button while crouched, you move faster while crouched. At no point did you actually tell the character to stand up. An immersive sim never does anything that the player didn't explicitly order the game to do. -Because a person doesn't do what the he didn't want himself to do. That what makes it an "immersive" simulation. You control the character. The character doesn't, and the game doesn't. Everything you accomplish is based on your own skill, and every failure you experience is your own fault. Unlike something like Assassin's Creed or other animation-prioritized cinematic semi-interactive applications, where almost nothing you accomplish is your own doing, and almost all of the mistakes you can experience are the game's fault.

 

If NuThief was an immersive sim, those loading screens would have you select a crowbar, apply that item on the window, then press the climb- and forward keys to climb through, use the mouse aiming to turn around, and activate the window again to close it. No automated multi-action sequences. Those are for cutscenes.

Edited by Plutonia
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An immersive sim never does anything that the player didn't explicitly order the game to do.

 

I remember this one time in DayZ when I vaulted a fence and my character kept running, at which point he plowed into a pile of concrete and rebar, broke both his legs and consequently passed out to be eaten by zombies. I suppose it was rather silly of me telling the game to do that.

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Normally in games, when you press the "move faster" button while crouched, your character stands up and runs. In immersive sims, you have a button for changing a stance, and moving faster/slower. When you press the "move faster" button while crouched,

 

Very interesting. I haven't yet understood what creep is supposed to be, but the rest makes sense as crouch running is possible. Still is there any in game info that it is handled that way? Because I normally only run to get away from guards and expected to stand up to be as fast as possible.

 

If NuThief was an immersive sim, those loading screens would have you select a crowbar, apply that item on the window, then press the climb- and forward keys to climb through, use the mouse aiming to turn around, and activate the window again to close it.

 

Sorry, but that would be a hell of annoying! I think it's quite bad already because sometimes you have to spam use, which is stupid in any game, sometimes not, sometimes you get a loading screen, sometimes not. The same is true with other things as well, like sometimes you can leave an area while hunted, sometimes not, which can be quite deadly. Sometimes you auto-rob a taken down guard, sometimes not. There were more issues like that but I can't remember all right now. How can a game be so inconsistent regarding gameplay elements?

Edited by wesp5
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Normally in games, when you press the "move faster" button while crouched, your character stands up and runs. In immersive sims, you have a button for changing a stance, and moving faster/slower. When you press the "move faster" button while crouched, you move faster while crouched.

 

I had a bit of trouble getting used to this. Dishonoured does the same.

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sometimes you get a loading screen, sometimes not.

 

Sometimes? You do mean "always" right? Everything is a loading screen. Windows, crate piles, secret doors. Only at those white markers in the City hub the game actually opens a different screen with a progress bar. The irony is that on a fast SSD, the loading always takes just a second, but only that separate loading screen takes that one second, because it doesn't require button mashing to play an animation. EM tried to disguise loading screens behind animations, but it only made them more apparent because of the inescapable mandatory wait that is independent from your machine's performance.

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I know this thread is not a wish list but I would really like to play some classic Thief FMs in TDM. I was recently playing some FMs for the first time :D and I have to say I like some of them even more than some of the OMs. I would like to see Cosas Mission X for example. :) Apparently there's someone working a way on getting DroMed maps to be imported into Dark Mod. Hopefully more TF Mappers could be interested in re creating some of their missions in DM.

 

BTW is Cosas the best Mission for T2? Are there any other mission that could be considered at the same level of quality? Let me know.

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It would be quite a feat to really import a map from Thief, since the editing paradigms are completely different, you would need to retexture the whole architecture, re-add sound effects, add a ton of detail, re-optimise the map (some ways of building maps in Thief don't work so well in TDM, and vice versa), and redo all the fiddly stuff like flowing water, scripting, conversations and what have you. All of these work more or less differently. By the time you add it all up, you have not just done as much work as the author of the original mission, you might have done more work to make it work on a different platform. And what you've got in the end is not a new mission, but a recreation of something people have already played. So, not likely to happen.

 

Cosas 2 is probably the most complex mission ever released, and it is among the most polished ones, but I wouldn't put it as the best. Of course, it is very subjective. If you like complex break-ins, it is very good.

Come the time of peril, did the ground gape, and did the dead rest unquiet 'gainst us. Our bands of iron and hammers of stone prevailed not, and some did doubt the Builder's plan. But the seals held strong, and the few did triumph, and the doubters were lain into the foundations of the new sanctum. -- Collected letters of the Smith-in-Exile, Civitas Approved

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Yes so many things would be very hard to translate properly without leaving just a mess.

In the end, though, especially now that the T2 sourcecode is out, I'm not worried about losing T2 FMs and trust that T2 can update with newer systems. So I'm ok with playing them on their originally intended platform and don't need the port.

 

If someone rigged a system that could import just the geometry from different sources, though, not only T2 but other "thiefy" games, then that could save mappers a lot of work and get us a lot of content, at least. Or maybe a system to procedurally generate content. I think there's a lot of potential authors that could make great FMs, if only they had geometry already made to work on.

What do you see when you turn out the light? I can't tell you but I know that it's mine.

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So for example. For someone like me, who would rather re-texture a whole map than to create a new one from zero with no talent to create nice architecture but good ideas for missions to take an abandoned thief fm from a house or a barn for example (something small). Could it be worth it?

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So for example. For someone like me, who would rather re-texture a whole map than to create a new one from zero with no talent to create nice architecture but good ideas for missions to take an abandoned thief fm from a house or a barn for example (something small). Could it be worth it?

 

You would still have to recreate the whole map from zero. Thief maps and TDM maps are created using the complete opposite technique. The old Thief editor treats the world like a solid block and the player 'carves' spaces out within it. It's a subtractive engine. The TDM engine is an additive engine. That means that the world is an empty void but you then create walls, and objects to be placed within the void.

 

It's possible to export Thief maps in a model format of some sort that could be used in TDM, but I believe that would have to be done in a modeling program like 3Dmax, lightwave, blender...etc.

 

So in order to recreate a map using Dark Radiant, you would have to eyeball the original map and build it from scratch.

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You would still have to recreate the whole map from zero. Thief maps and TDM maps are created using the complete opposite technique. The old Thief editor treats the world like a solid block and the player 'carves' spaces out within it. It's a subtractive engine. The TDM engine is an additive engine. That means that the world is an empty void but you then create walls, and objects to be placed within the void.

 

It's possible to export Thief maps in a model format of some sort that could be used in TDM, but I believe that would have to be done in a modeling program like 3Dmax, lightwave, blender...etc.

 

So in order to recreate a map using Dark Radiant, you would have to eyeball the original map and build it from scratch.

 

I'm not sure how true that is NH. No matter how the editor operates you are still creating points in a pseudo 3D space - a program to convert between one to the other is well within the grasp of a few of our members. See the System Shock/ultima thread.

 

Reality is though that it's still a lot of work. I wouldn't knock a remake of a TDP level, but I think the best way is a new realization of it.

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Sounds a bit discouraging for people who would like to do missions but don't have the time or the knowledge to make one from scratch. Making rooms in Dark Radiant is pretty easy. I made one following Komags tutorial. The challenge lies in making all the architecture. It would be nice to have different pre made structures that you can mess with or different terrain structures pre made with grass, rivers or skybox already there, as well as house shapes or barn shapes that you just have to fill in and build around that. So that the mapper can concentrate more into the story and gameplay rather than creating the map itself.

Edited by Taquito
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There are a lot of architectural prefabs in both the main mod and on these forums (although there is still no central repository for them). Sotha was also working on modular pieces of architecture. You can use these to simplify/speed up the building process. Much of Springheel's new mission was based on prefabs; usually with a few modifications, but that's still easier than building everything from scratch.

 

That still does not mean making a fan mission does not require time and effort. But it is surprisingly easy to make a good one if someone gives it a honest try.

 

To make things easier, though, here are my prefabs (a few are actually from Bikerdude and the training mission, but they are mostly mine): Melan's Prefab Collection, April 2014. Now go forth and build!

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Come the time of peril, did the ground gape, and did the dead rest unquiet 'gainst us. Our bands of iron and hammers of stone prevailed not, and some did doubt the Builder's plan. But the seals held strong, and the few did triumph, and the doubters were lain into the foundations of the new sanctum. -- Collected letters of the Smith-in-Exile, Civitas Approved

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It would be nice to have different pre made structures that you can mess with

 

That's exactly what prefabs are for.

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In addition to using prefabs, in my experience, once you have the basics down, mapping goes by pretty fast when you have a good plan. It's when you don't have a plan, or a thin one, that things can slow down. That's just to say a little planning on paper can go a long way IMO.

What do you see when you turn out the light? I can't tell you but I know that it's mine.

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Thanks for the links Melan. The whole editor can be a bit overwhelming to be honest if you have no idea what you're doing, like me lol. But the prefab thing is genius. At least I already learned to import those prefabs, make rooms and apply textures. I still got a loong way to go. But I have a very clear idea of the map I would like to make already. I'll probably bombard the Editor Forum with a thousand questions. :P

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1. The blackjack *thump* sound doesn't occur until it's at the bottom of the screen or beyond. Would like the sound to be timed more with it's impact on the AI's head or neck to make the action feel tight.

 

2. Would like blackjacking nerfed a little more. I'm a KO'er and it's very difficult to catch up to guards without alerting them either as you approach or, if nothing else, at the last second. (They often seem to have a sixth-sense at the last second, becoming aware and attacking you.) And while trying to be careful to not get caught, it often requires traveling a fairly substantial distance, relatively speaking, with greater risk of running into or being seen by other AI that shouldn't really have factored into the situation, just because you're trying to catch up to your target. (Might be nice to have the AI's default walk speed a little slower.)

 

3. The vocal sets could use some improvement and more added, of course. I've played a mission or two the past week where one of the guards seems so disinterested, with a "ho-hum" attitude when he's attacking; He's literally just calmly speaking the lines in a dejected manner that's reminiscent of Eeyore from Winnie the Pooh, for lack of better comparison (sorry). If it's an intentional characterization, it's not delivered in a believable manner and hurts immersion. I'm not yet sure if this voice is unique to the map(s), or a part of the default voice set included with TDM. The same goes for other voices, though -- ones that are default to TDM -- where they're not really sounding genuinely angry or riled-up when attacking; they just casually talk or deliver the lines in a highly scripted manner.

 

4. If you have auto-lockpicking enabled, it should successfully advance the lock to the next level after one full lock-jiggle cycle, not two or more. (I have mine set to two, and I can't remember if that's because of a tweak I did or if it's default. Seems like the default was four?, but I could be wrong.) I feel like it's a penalty to force me to sit through it multiple times before advancing to the next lockpick. I just genuinely don't like lockpick minigames that require more than just the T1/T2 style. I liked that classic style so much that I don't want to bother with mini-games. If I do the lockpicking manually, I almost always get it on the first try... so why shouldn't the auto-lockpick be successful on the first attempt, as well? I just don't personally understand having a penalty for auto-picking; why should its use be dissuaded? People who like the manual mini-game can keep doing the mini-game, and people who don't like it can automate it (i.e., it wouldn't hurt the experience of people who like doing the mini-game).

 

5. I wish putting out candles didn't require the candle to be picked up first. Also, when picking candles up, it sometimes clangs around as it tries to center itself in your view or whatever. (I think it's a lot better than it used to be, but it still causes the occasional unexpected/unforeseeable cacophony of sound.)

 

6. It's usually very difficult to get items out of chests. I think mainly because the entire chest frob-highlights; it might be partly due to the chest height (not sure), as when trying to hit the sweet spot that makes the loot in the chest highlight, I often have to crouch a little.

 

7. When trying to exit either the Map or Objectives screen -- can't remember which one offhand, or maybe it's both -- I almost always hit the ESC key out of habit. But doing so takes me to the game's Main Menu instead. Is it possible to make ESC act like an "I'm closing the book" type of key in that instance so it brings you immediately back to the game rather than to the menu screen?

 

Sorry if some of these are already in the works, were already deemed technically impossible, or labeled 'not happening.' Just trying to share some ideas that I've felt would make my experience a little better. Definitely a fun game, if I may be so bold as to call it a 'game' ;) , but look forward to seeing more refinement.

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5. I wish putting out candles didn't require the candle to be picked up first. Also, when picking candles up, it sometimes clangs around as it tries to center itself in your view or whatever. (I think it's a lot better than it used to be, but it still causes the occasional unexpected/unforeseeable cacophony of sound.)

 

6. It's usually very difficult to get items out of chests. I think mainly because the entire chest frob-highlights; it might be partly due to the chest height (not sure), as when trying to hit the sweet spot that makes the loot in the chest highlight, I often have to crouch a little.

Both things are actually up to the mapp, not really part of th core TDM engine. Sotha had such candles that behave like you explained it in his mission The Phrase Book. They are actually very easy to set up, so I can't say why mappers don't do it that way. I find it annoying, too, btw. ;)

 

The same applies to the chest. The easiest solution would be to make the chest non-frobable after it was opened, but that may annoy some people. You could make it frobable again, though, once it was emptied by the player. Mappers can also place the patchs put in the chest prefabs higher to easen frobbing stuff out of it.

2. Would like blackjacking nerfed a little more. I'm a KO'er and it's very difficult to catch up to guards without alerting them either as you approach or, if nothing else, at the last second. (They often seem to have a sixth-sense at the last second, becoming aware and attacking you.) And while trying to be careful to not get caught, it often requires traveling a fairly substantial distance, relatively speaking, with greater risk of running into or being seen by other AI that shouldn't really have factored into the situation, just because you're trying to catch up to your target. (Might be nice to have the AI's default walk speed a little slower.)

Doesn't it make sense that if you easen a mission for yourself by taking out one ai, you have to take a risk to do so. It's not the deeper sense of the game to ko ai, it's about stealing. KO's are just one aspect which you can use for that purpose.

FM's: Builder Roads, Old Habits, Old Habits Rebuild

Mapping and Scripting: Apples and Peaches

Sculptris Models and Tutorials: Obsttortes Models

My wiki articles: Obstipedia

Texture Blending in DR: DR ASE Blend Exporter

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Candles - Interesting. I'm just reporting what pretty much every map I've played has done; so I assumed it was a default implementation provided by the toolset.

 

Chests - I wouldn't like the way you say because I want control. I'd want to be able to shut the lid even without taking everything. (Besides, sometimes there are junk objects in chests that you won't want to take; so you can't count on it being emptied every time.) I think they should just make the *lid* frobbable; not the entire chest. From a player's perspective, I don't think the entire chest needs to be/should be frobbable.

 

KOs - I don't mind a little risk... but I don't like frustration. Sometimes seems awkward/unrealistic about how it currently works. Maybe if guards didn't get a sixth sense at the last moment or if blackjack attacks had a slightly larger strike zone/distance I'd be more okay with their movement speed.

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Candles - as said, the behaviour as you've described it is not stock, it has to be implemented by the mapper himself

 

Chests - with taking everything I've meant taking the valuables, but I think the idea of leaving just the lid frobable is also worth a try, the only problem I see here is that the lock is attached to the chest.

 

KO's - there have been lots of discussions about this topic already, some think it is too difficult, some think it is to easy (I do so for example). This is a very subjective matter, me thnks. One way to bypass this would be to make the KO box size on the ai's heads difficulty level depending, but I can't say if this can be simple done via the defs or if this would need an implementation in the engine code. If the first is possible, there could be an additional package made available that easens KO's, so those who have problems with it could simple use that to avoid frustration.

FM's: Builder Roads, Old Habits, Old Habits Rebuild

Mapping and Scripting: Apples and Peaches

Sculptris Models and Tutorials: Obsttortes Models

My wiki articles: Obstipedia

Texture Blending in DR: DR ASE Blend Exporter

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2 and 5 are difficult by design and are one of the things that differentiates TDM from most modern games. You the player behind the keyboard have to learn real skills. I still find blackjacking as difficult as you describe, but that's because I don't do it much. Putting out candles though, I can now do without clanging them around. It's not random it's a learned skill and when you learn it the action feels realistic.

 

4: lockpicking in tdm isn't a mini game, it's a gameplay device. The difference is that time doesn't freeze during lockpicking in tdm, so it's part of the main gameplay. Guards still approach and you can hear them, so mappers can use it to set up interesting or tricky situations. Again you get rewarded for skill here. If you can't pick it fast enough, you have to find a key or deal with the guard somehow. Auto lockpicking is there so people who don't like it can open unguarded locks, but it's not meant to get around the tricky situations that mappers design. Auto lockpickers still have to choose between doing it by skill or distracting the guard etc.

 

6: frobbing stuff in chests. I find this unnecessarily tricky too, although not everyone has a problem with it. But I don't think this one is supposed to be a skill thing. I think it can be fixed by mappers by setting the chest body to be non frobable. Does that mess up the lock Obsttorte? I haven't tried it but in prev discussions that's been cited as a good fix. I reckon there could be a case for changing the prefab for future maps if so.

 

7: I still do that a lot too and I agree the escape key would feel more natural. Let's see if others support it.

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Putting out candles though, I can now do without clanging them around. It's not random it's a learned skill and when you learn it the action feels realistic.

 

Its actually pretty simple once you develop the muscle memory/habit of slowly swiping the mouse upward as you pick something up. In this manner, as you grab the object, your mouse is moving upward away from anything that would "clang" so as you grab the object, the object moves away from the surface that would cause the noise. So yeah, instead of keeping the mouse static when you grab something, gently move it in a direction away from the surface that would make noise --AS you grab it. You'll find this technique to always be silent.

 

As far as placing the object back down, you'll find with practice that this becomes second nature. I had issues with this in the beginning as I'm sure most players do; and it makes sense. After a time though if your focus is on bEINg a silent thief, you'll find that practice pays off and replacing object without making -any- noise is quite simple and after you're good at it, you appreciate the fact that practice and persistence pay off in this game, and that being able to accomplish this in-game is its own reward, no need for Steam achievements, "*Silent Thief* --You've successfully placed an object without making a sound!"

 

IMO also, the blackjacking is nearly exactly similar where practice is concerned. Also, parrying while sword fighting (though I don't do this much so I'm not great at it, and by token, avoid it).

 

This game has been designed with older, and IMO bETTEr, game mechanics in mind. New players WILL find it difficult to do this or that action even close to perfect on their first few maps. That's because they're not adept at the game controls and mechanics. The game does reward you in confidence and esteem though, once you're comfortable in the player skin and realize that its practice that will get you there. You can't just jump in and hit E for an animation that does it right the first time... you as the player have to successfully perform.

 

A practiced thief is a competent thief :)

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Chests/boxes in my missions only highlight lids. It's one click during mapping to uncheck frobability, and SO much easier for access.

 

Having the prefabs set up this way to begin with, would go a long way to improving things.

 

The autopick attempt number would be for game balance...otherwise map patrols would have to be quickened and cause problems for those who pick it seems to me.

 

PS: I don't swipe up as I grab something, I just position my view slightly higher, so its centering lifts it silently.

Edited by RJFerret
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"The measure of a man's character is what he would do if he knew he never would be found out."

- Baron Thomas Babington Macauley

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