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Things that could be improved


Berny

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As far as I know, there isn't an arg for the AI. The mappers can set 'ai_should_not_close' on a door, but in that case the all AI (not just zombies) will avoid closing that door.

 

 

P.S. Would you be able to blackjack a dog?

 

Sounds not much realistic. It's very vigilant. More than a man is.

 

But, one can always invent THE MEAT ARROWS!!

Edited by Scampada

Stop taffering there, criminal taffer!

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Hai dere boyz, I haven't read all the topic and I wanna know, is it planned to implement a player model so we wouldn't look down and see an empty space?

It was really cool in Thief 3. Moreover, the player's model was also making a shadow. And it would be GREAT (as TDM is already) if enemies reacted not only on player in sight, but on his shadow, too!

I've used to watching my lurky shadow on a wall when I'm creeping past it, it's so athmospheric, woohoo.

 

TDM is great, you've surely heard this many time, so, nuff said. Just great.

 

Implementing a character model is a tremendous amount of work and always results in less freedom for the player.

 

As for the shadow, do you know any stealth game where the AI can recognize the player's shadow? I'd be surprised if there was one. Not only would that be difficult to implement, it would also make it extremely difficult for the player, since you can't see what your shadow is doing behind you, and if your shadow stretched down the hall ahead of you, you would have no way of knowing whether there were guards looking at it from adjoining halls. The player would be penalized for things he can't know, which is bad gameplay.

 

My suggestion to improve gameplay is for the ability to push the AI.

 

 

Yes, I'd like to see this too, both for pushing your way out of corners, and also for pushing guards over ledges. But there would be some tricky things to work out.

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Implementing a character model is a tremendous amount of work and always results in less freedom for the player.

 

Why?

Okay, it's a big work to do. But why less freedom? I haven't noticed any such decreasing in Thief 3, where I could see my legs, arms, chest etc.

 

As for the shadow, do you know any stealth game where the AI can recognize the player's shadow?

 

Nah. That's why I proposed it here!

 

Not only would that be difficult to implement

 

Maybe...

 

it would also make it extremely difficult for the player, since you can't see what your shadow is doing behind you, and if your shadow stretched down the hall ahead of you, you would have no way of knowing whether there were guards looking at it from adjoining halls. The player would be penalized for things he can't know, which is bad gameplay.

 

Nah. Hmmm. This might be implemented as super-extremal-hardcore-geek-true-ghost-thief-player difficulty mode. Super realistic!

But, playing with no own shadow, active or not, is a bit boring( just a bit.

Stop taffering there, criminal taffer!

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Pushing...

 

The player has an expendable tool that can be used for the pushing. Dunno what it could be, but it should be limited so that the push won't become an exploit that is spammed.

 

The player uses the push tool, and emits a pushing stim. AI has a pushing response. If AI receives a push, they play a 'being pushed' animation.

 

That way we could add push to mine explosions or players could do Interesting Things with the push-mechanic.

 

I wonder if it could be coupled with the flashbomb. The flash would blind the AI and make them stagger backwards. Thus, the push could be facilitated with an already existing tool, and the flashbomb would be more useful, not only blinding the enemy, but making some space as well, too.

Clipper

-The mapper's best friend.

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Why?

Okay, it's a big work to do. But why less freedom? I haven't noticed any such decreasing in Thief 3, where I could see my legs, arms, chest etc.

 

 

You haven't noticed falling off railings if you turn in place or lean? You haven't noticed the lack of rope arrows? (not implemented because it was too much work to make climbing body awareness), or the "sucking into place" that happens when lockpicking (in T3) or opening doors (in T4). The inability to look behind you without turning your body, thus making footstep noises? That's just a few examples.

 

This might be implemented as super-extremal-hardcore-geek-true-ghost-thief-player difficulty mode.

 

 

If someone wants to go through all the work of implementing such a feature to appeal to 1% of our audience, they're welcome to do it.

 

playing with no own shadow, active or not, is a bit boring( just a bit.

 

 

You can turn the shadow on using the console if you find that the game is "boring" without it.

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Btw, when a guard is alerted and searches for ya, and his vigilance is way too high, he maybe would cry and shout not just repeat 'I shall find ya'. So much more nearby guards would be alerted. Look, you notice that all supervaluable loot in the room was stolen, your guardmate is missing, torches are off, and you just keep going around and grumble 'I shal find ya'? You should run everywhere, lit all torches, and shout 'To arms, to arms, taffer here!'

 

When you pickpocket them, they shouldn't also be so pacific. The pickpocketed guard must stop, alert, and start searching -- not for you but for his purse, maybe. So it wouldn't count as your 'alert #3', and he wouldn't be alerted (with his sword in its sheath) but he would perform a search action in the room where he noticed his purse missing, and in the near-by.

Stop taffering there, criminal taffer!

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The player uses the push tool, and emits a pushing stim. AI has a pushing response. If AI receives a push, they play a 'being pushed' animation.

 

 

I don't think limiting spamming is a big problem--there are lots of ways to control that. My concern is more technical--what happens when an AI is pushed into monsterclip? Mappers usually monsterclip around ledges, for example, so AI cannot accidently fall. If you don't let AI go through the monsterclip, pushing will look ridiculous and have limited use. If you DO let AI clip into monsterclip, then what happens to AI who get pushed into models or other areas they can't pathfind in?

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The player has an expendable tool that can be used for the pushing. Dunno what it could be, but it should be limited so that the push won't become an exploit that is spammed.

 

The player uses the push tool, and emits a pushing stim. AI has a pushing response. If AI receives a push, they play a 'being pushed' animation.

 

That way we could add push to mine explosions or players could do Interesting Things with the push-mechanic.

 

Excuse me for arguing, but, I believe extending the existing 'push' ability would be enough.

 

Look, you can push crates? When you run you can push them faster? (I think it's so)

So, it would be better that player could use this ability to push enemies, and, for they are not as heavy as crates, running and bumping into enemy would be enough to make him a good impulse. If an enemy is standing near ledges, this may extend in a 'falling over' reaction also. And it would be much more realistic. What super-expendable tool you need to push someone? But, pushing someone causes either death or alert #5, and it's obviously would not be a popular job to do. B)

Stop taffering there, criminal taffer!

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You haven't noticed falling off railings if you turn in place or lean? You haven't noticed the lack of rope arrows? (not implemented because it was too much work to make climbing body awareness), or the "sucking into place" that happens when lockpicking (in T3) or opening doors (in T4). The inability to look behind you without turning your body, thus making footstep noises? That's just a few examples.

 

Heh, they must only remove this dumb animation with moving your leg to lean and all would be OK.

I dunno. Why not create a player model which will be visible only by player or something? I can not understand.

Stop taffering there, criminal taffer!

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If you DO let AI clip into monsterclip, then what happens to AI who get pushed into models or other areas they can't pathfind in?

 

He falls in an opposite direction when pushed into models and, these models are also stunned for a few seconds.

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Could the Code check if the area is valid AAS area?

 

Let say the pushing anim staggers the AI back 16 units. The code checks if there is valid area there. If not, cancel anim (or use a shorter stagger anim). If there is, let the AI stagger.

 

If we could somehow detect that there is no AAS area in the push destination, and there is a drop there, then we could let the AI stagger back (possibly with a special stagger and fall anim) and turn them into a ragdoll so they can really fall.

Clipper

-The mapper's best friend.

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A moment ago I alerted a cook in TD2 mission, he said 'an intruder', opened the door and ran away. Two guards were staying behind this door, even I could see them and they kept still and silent. The cook didn't alert someone, he just ran away.

Why don't they alarm shouting, so all nearby units became startled?

 

Even more, it looks strange when a character sees that a candle or a torch is off, says 'I don't want to lit this myself' and keeps going in full darkness!

Couldn't they script them somehow... Yeah, I saw them litting candles, it's terrific, but it's not safe: you can just remove a candle from its position, and put it at some dark corner, and no one will search for it to lit again.

Well, shall we go further -- if someone wished to find a missing candle but it's damn dark everywhere, what could he do? Maybe he'd get a torch from a wall or a lantern and search for candle. I didn't notice them litting torches again, only candles. Maybe I've played too little yet. Well, what if I put their torch off right in their hands? They should lit it again... Isn't it implemented? I haven't noticed yet.

And if it's dark where he goes and no candle he can find, and no torch he can get from a wall and no lantern on a table neraby, what then? Why do they go their way in complete darkness, as if they were cats or something? It's not natural.

Edited by Scampada

Stop taffering there, criminal taffer!

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Excuse moi, I just failed the non-killing objective killing a rat a minute ago. Ahahahahah. Geez.

 

Maybe it is possible not to extend this trigger to rats, spiders, zombies etc? Is it map-specific? (if so TD2: Chalice)

 

Btw is this map ghostable? I found no possibilities to get by guard totally unnoticed. I even get onto the windows outside, climbing up, but the author didn't make it possible to make it this way. :(

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It is a lot of work but I disagree about the less freedom part. There's a mod for skyrim that accomplishes this is a very interesting way.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ioLusJt4eYA

This also was implemented in Thief 3. I see no differences)) In Thief 3 you can even look left or right without turning your body, so you can see your arms and weapons from unusual angles -- very athmospheric.

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You either have to forget syncing the character model up with the world (which limits the immersive benefits of adding body awareness in the first place), or you have to force the player to be in specific places at specific times during animations (ala lockpicking in T3 or opening doors in T4).

 

As an example, Try to come up with a lockpicking system that retains the freedom of movement you have in TDM, but still shows your hands correctly manipulating the lock.

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As an example, Try to come up with a lockpicking system that retains the freedom of movement you have in TDM, but still shows your hands correctly manipulating the lock.

 

TDM's way of lockpicking isn't absolutely great -- I like its basics, repeating rhythms and so on, yeah. But if you pick locks when staring at the door hinge it's not much good. You can pay this no attention, yeah, but if there were alternatives... Hmmm...

So, if there were good model for player, it would be OK if he was 'forced' time to time to be in specific positions.

Or, maybe, if it's possible, the game would vary the model's hands direction so they would always point in the right direction...

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This also was implemented in Thief 3. I see no differences)) In Thief 3 you can even look left or right without turning your body, so you can see your arms and weapons from unusual angles -- very athmospheric.

 

Oh sorry I haven't played thief 3 so I dont know how the camera was implemented. I was assuming that body awareness was implemented by sticking a camera on the player model's head. However, this skyrim mod simply uses the first person hand models with third person body/leg models to achieve immersion. The gameplay remains exactly the same as vanilla except you get to see your body/legs when you look down. Please disregard if I was totally wrong.

 

 

Pushing...

 

The player has an expendable tool that can be used for the pushing. Dunno what it could be, but it should be limited so that the push won't become an exploit that is spammed.

 

The player uses the push tool, and emits a pushing stim. AI has a pushing response. If AI receives a push, they play a 'being pushed' animation.

 

That way we could add push to mine explosions or players could do Interesting Things with the push-mechanic.

 

I wonder if it could be coupled with the flashbomb. The flash would blind the AI and make them stagger backwards. Thus, the push could be facilitated with an already existing tool, and the flashbomb would be more useful, not only blinding the enemy, but making some space as well, too.

 

I think a better approach would be having a delay between pushes (ie 15 seconds) so players can't spam it. Limiting the total amount of pushes doesn't really make that much sense IRL

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However, this skyrim mod simply uses the first person hand models with third person body/leg models to achieve immersion. The gameplay remains exactly the same as vanilla except you get to see your body/legs when you look down. Please disregard if I was totally wrong.

 

Huh. Great. Terrific idea.

 

I think a better approach would be having a delay between pushes (ie 15 seconds) so players can't spam it. Limiting the total amount of pushes doesn't really make that much sense IRL

 

And its effect may vary depending of enemy type: heavy armored Hammerite will obviously fall, and a common thug won't.

Stop taffering there, criminal taffer!

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So, if there were good model for player, it would be OK if he was 'forced' time to time to be in specific positions.

 

 

I don't think you'll find much support for that here.

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Even more, it looks strange when a character sees that a candle or a torch is off, says 'I don't want to lit this myself' and keeps going in full darkness!

Couldn't they script them somehow... Yeah, I saw them litting candles, it's terrific, but it's not safe: you can just remove a candle from its position, and put it at some dark corner, and no one will search for it to lit again.

Well, shall we go further -- if someone wished to find a missing candle but it's damn dark everywhere, what could he do? Maybe he'd get a torch from a wall or a lantern and search for candle. I didn't notice them litting torches again, only candles. Maybe I've played too little yet. Well, what if I put their torch off right in their hands? They should lit it again... Isn't it implemented? I haven't noticed yet.

And if it's dark where he goes and no candle he can find, and no torch he can get from a wall and no lantern on a table neraby, what then? Why do they go their way in complete darkness, as if they were cats or something? It's not natural.

I bet this could be done, but it could get very complicated for mappers.

The approach at the moment gives a lot of control to the mapper, you can implement immovable light sources, and tell the AI to always relight critical lights, or you let the player take all of them out, as you desire.

Torches can be relit, if they are not too high, and that happens a lot if the AI is set up this way.

 

Torches in the hand get droped usually I think, because the AI goes on alert when the torch is put out, but I don't have much experience with that to know how exactly it works.

 

While I am sometimes amused by the patrolling guards in the complete dark, the question is always how a solution would be done.

For example, what takes priority, guarding an important door, or finding light again? (Best for the mapper to decide if done I think, but makes it harder to script it all).

Also there could be lights tagged as "takeable", might be with a "return" trigger, so that the light is only used to light other lights again and then brought back. There could also be areas or objects tagged as "here are lights", were guards could supply themselfes with another light.

Or guards might be tagged as "relight alerter" that prompts others ("lighters") that are around to relight the light source (e.g. servants) while they continue their patrol.

 

But all that would be quite a lot to code I think. Also it couldn't be standard behaviour, as it is usual here not to break previous maps (meaning they should function as intended by the author).

 

 

 

Regarding a body model:

I like to see my body when looking down, always have, has a nice feeling.

But that said, I have yet to see a first person game where a real body model is used, and it really works all together.

There are nice tries, and mostly irritable failures, but nothing (that I have seen yet) that really works.

Thief 3's is one of the problematic ones, as it was nice to look at, but made moving around quite hard, leaning let you fall off of things and ohters.

 

The core, I think, is: a Body model would have to "know" what you are intending to do, to look right. (Otherwise you have, for example, the same "jump" anmiation if you jump on a small crate or try to climb a large wall. With one of it, it would look silly.

Many games nowadays take that approach, in that your input is first processed, and then the games decides what you "wanted to do". And what the game thinks is often wrong.

I like a game that does what I say, and does not interpret my commands. Less problems with the game breaking because something was not thought of (and mappers can think of lot of things).

 

So at the moment I don't think a body model would be anything worth investing time and effort into.

At least I know I wouldn't try to do it, and as said I like it if I see my body in a first person game.

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I know people that play the game with player shadows turned on through the console. And IIRC there's an option to draw the player model, or maybe it was to force 3P perspective. But I've seen the PC before. It's wonky because the animations are basic, but it's not the worst. I thought it was fun to try every once in a while for variety.

What do you see when you turn out the light? I can't tell you but I know that it's mine.

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the coders job is to provide mappers with flexible tools to create their own artistic visions. It is the mappers job to learn how the hell to use them. If you educate yourself on the wiki/forums about all the important topics like lighting, S/R, particles, models, pathfinding, etc, you should find that the coders have done a goddamned fine job of providing us mappers with an extreme amount of artistic freedom to do what we want with our maps.

 

Don't gripe about default settings. Work up the intestinal fortitude to do some work and set things how you want them in your map.

 

I think that a mapper with a bit of coding experience will have an easier job doing what he needs to do. He can get into the source code of the map editing software (assuming it's open source) and modify the program to his liking so as to be able to more comfortably create his maps.

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