Things that could be improved

[datiswous]

42 minutes ago, grodenglaive said:

Excellent, my eyes thank you! 

Welcome to the dark side, where the true tdm fans reside.

 

1 hour ago, Baal said:

It has. Go down to the bottom of the page, and look for "Theme".

So many people don't know about this. It should be placed on top instead.

Edited January 31, 2025 by datiswous

[wesp5]

I completely agree, the Theme selector should be on top of the page, maybe just behind the overall leaderboard topic. Because who would browse The DARK Mod on a bright screen ;)?

[datiswous]

Yeah I think if the dark theme was the default theme we would have twice the active community.

[datiswous]

Throwable holy water bottles.

So the idea is that you can throw holy water bottles, they break and if they hit undead, will damage them. It could also do splash damage in an are around where it breaks. It's more direct, faster and mostly easier, apart from the skill of throwing. An optional effect (I think of) could be that they can be thrown into pools, making the water in the pool holy.

Alternative: holy water arrows. You don't need to apply the holy water to water arrows.

In general I don't see the point of the holy water running out (shortly) making it very difficult to use effectively.

[wesp5]

22 minutes ago, datiswous said:

In general I don't see the point of the holy water running out (shortly) making it very difficult to use effectively.

I  completely agree and always found the timer illogical and killing the atmosphere. Thus throwable holy water bottles have been in my Unofficial Patch for a long time, created by the great Obsttorte. They do not work on pools though...

Edited June 24, 2025 by wesp5

[Klatremus]

1) I think the pickpocket count could be improved. It doesn't seem like pickable broadheads from archers are counted properly. In Penny Dreadful 1 for example, there are 2 pickpockets. If I finish the mission without picking the archer's arrow, it says '1 out of 2' in the end stats. If I pick both, it then suddenly says '1 out of 1', as if it never counted the arrow.

2) Can you guys make one key input for hold crouch and another for toggle crouch please? I use both during gameplay, and it is very annoying to have to go to the main menu to change the toggle setting each time. Or is there a way to keybind toggle/hold crouch in the DarkmodKeybinds.cfg?

3) Can you guys put the amount of Locks Picked in the end stats please? It is a stat I always try to minimize, and otherwise just useful info.

Edited August 10, 2025 by Klatremus

[thebigh]

1 hour ago, Klatremus said:

I think the pickpocket count could be improved. It doesn't seem like pickable broadheads from archers are counted properly.

This bug has been known for a while: https://bugs.thedarkmod.com/view.php?id=6213

[Taffingtaffer]

There is a complain that I see frequently among players: AI takes too much time to chill out. I've personally not played many missions yet to pin-point potential stinkers, but here's an example from a ThiefGuild review for "The Last Night on Crookshank Lane" (a 2025 mission): https://www.thiefguild.com/topics/90163/meh

Are we to blame mission authors for this? I know there is a WIP to make flashbombs act like in Thief by making guards vulnerable to KOs, but that doesn't solve the root problem. Players shouldn't have to wait forever to recover from a failed state if they escape from the area alive; that encourages loadscumming. And if the concern is that they will just wait it out in a dark corner... well, then the mission should provide interesting layouts to escape. It's not on the player.
I'm currently playing the decent Deadly Shadows FMs and I'll grant that guards are a bit too easy to escape from and forget about you quickly, but TDM is on the opposite extreme.

On a related note, guards could do with a "I've found you!" bark followed by a brief surprise animation similar to Deadly Shadows (or take inspiration from the poised sword animation from Thief 1-2). Right now they just stop on their tracks and keep dead quiet, then immediately attack you without warning.
Overall, the failed state in TDM feels undercooked.

On a slightly different note, what was the reasoning on copying Deadly Shadow's useless blackjack bashing? Making some noise without exposing yourself with the sword or without having to find an object to throw doesn't seem that game-breaking. Some soft surfaces like carpets even play the wrong SFX when hitting them (they sound like metal!)

Edited August 14, 2025 by Taffingtaffer
Add blackjack bashing suggestion

[I.C.H.I.]

IMO AI needs total redesign from scratch. It's not just flawed, it's fundamentally broken. If by your play style you never expose yourself then AI behavior may look bearable, but if not then AI will act so dumb that it might make you hate the game. The way NPCs behave in the alert state is totally insane, living being don't act like that and every time you see their nonexistent brain melting, it obliterates the immersion.

But AI is not the only issue here. The totally unnatural robotic animations bring their own toll into this mess. I just look at them and see wooden puppets with extremely stiff joints, humans never move like that, even if they have certain health issues.

So we need both: proper AI behavior and good looking animations, otherwise we will have this extremely ugly sight.

[New Horizon]

1 hour ago, I.C.H.I. said:

So we need both: proper AI behavior and good looking animations, otherwise we will have this extremely ugly sight.

Finding coders and animators to do it...is not easy.

[AluminumHaste]

5 hours ago, I.C.H.I. said:

IMO AI needs total redesign from scratch. It's not just flawed, it's fundamentally broken. If by your play style you never expose yourself then AI behavior may look bearable, but if not then AI will act so dumb that it might make you hate the game. The way NPCs behave in the alert state is totally insane, living being don't act like that and every time you see their nonexistent brain melting, it obliterates the immersion.

But AI is not the only issue here. The totally unnatural robotic animations bring their own toll into this mess. I just look at them and see wooden puppets with extremely stiff joints, humans never move like that, even if they have certain health issues.

So we need both: proper AI behavior and good looking animations, otherwise we will have this extremely ugly sight.

Bro, this game is from 2006. There's only so much that can be done.

[I.C.H.I.]

3 hours ago, AluminumHaste said:

Bro, this game is from 2006. There's only so much that can be done.

And what year is now? That's a bad excuse for not evolving. I'm pretty sure better quality animations are available for free somewhere, you just need to adapt them.

And about AI. One step at a time through all these past years could make it better. IMO good AI is much more important than anything else that has been added to TDM since its first release.

[datiswous]

Nobody seems to do animation. I think originally Maya was used for animation. maybe it's possible to use Blender. I don't know.

[datiswous]

43 minutes ago, I.C.H.I. said:

And about AI. One step at a time through all these past years could make it better. IMO good AI is much more important than anything else that has been added to TDM since its first release.

AI has been improved a lot over the years afaik. but I agree on the ai alert state.

Maybe also often missions aren't designed with ai alert state in mind. nobody tests and tries to correct it. Players immidiatelly quickload when they get spotted.

Edited August 15, 2025 by datiswous

[AluminumHaste]

4 hours ago, I.C.H.I. said:

And what year is now? That's a bad excuse for not evolving. I'm pretty sure better quality animations are available for free somewhere, you just need to adapt them.

And about AI. One step at a time through all these past years could make it better. IMO good AI is much more important than anything else that has been added to TDM since its first release.

I get it, you're new around here and haven't been around for all the work that's been done, to take the Doom 3 AI from what it was, to where it is now.

I don't know if there's anyone left working on AI (aside from bug fixes) or animations.
The point is, coming in here, guns blazing about how bad this and that are, is not constructive and immediately puts people's backs up.

If you're willing to donate your time and expertise to try improving these areas of the game, then by all means go for it.

 

[chakkman]

I rather think the issue with A.I. is that it should be fine-tuned, or defused per default. For example, the A.I. hearing on the default "Challenging" setting is absolutely nuts. They hear a rat squeaking on the other end of the map. Actually, it's even impossible to blackjack a moving A.I. on marble with that setting. It's the one setting I change to "Forgiving", to make it more playable, and, on that setting, it already is a LOT harder than the original Thief games. 

Also, what really needs to be done is a readjusting/revamp of the blackjack system in general. Even with the blackjack indicator it's way, way, WAY too finicky. The person who worked on it obviously doesn't understand that certaion gameplay mechanics need to be more forgiving. It's the same as the discussion about A.I. in shooters. The A.I. in shooters is made deliberately stupid, otherwise, they would shoot you the moment a pixel of you is visible for them.

Those are the two things I would have changed years ago already. But, unfortunately, there is always the one guy shouting "SKILL ISSUE! GIT GUD NEWB!!!", so, that hasn't been done yet.

Edited August 15, 2025 by chakkman

[snatcher]

22 hours ago, Taffingtaffer said:

There is a complain that I see frequently among players: AI takes too much time to chill out. [...]

I have a Chill Bro (working title) mod I have been tweaking and play-testing for months years. I may finish it and publish it someday...

1 hour ago, chakkman said:

Also, what really needs to be done is a readjusting/revamp of the blackjack system in general. [...]

You should give the Classic Blackjack mod a try.

Mods are the answer.

[wesp5]

57 minutes ago, snatcher said:

Mods are the answer.

Exactly. I never play without my patch which removes the ridiculous knock-out-immunity once an NPC is alerted! It makes blackjacking much easier as you have more chances until they actually have their weapon out.

[chakkman]

Thanks guys. I'm looking into Snatchers modpack at the moment, and see that you can activate/enable single mods, that's very nice, as I surely don't need all of them. I'll give that classic blackjack mod a go, I think.

Have you noticed any bugs or incompatibilities with certain missions?

[snatcher]

I am not aware of any bugs as of v5.0 of the Modpack.

Extensive research and testing is done for each of the mods I release. Sometimes mappers mod their missions and include files that take preference over mine. This means some mods will be inactive in certain missions even when you have the mod installed. Let's put it another way: some mods won't work in certain missions but won't break the game, the mod simply is not available. "Incompatibilities" with missions for each and every mod are listed in the main page of the Modpack as well as in the readme.

[Arcturus]

12 hours ago, datiswous said:

Nobody seems to do animation. I think originally Maya was used for animation. maybe it's possible to use Blender. I don't know.

I know. This thread has links to blender .md5 exporter as well as Blender rigs for Darkmod NPCs:

I have not managed to retarget any stock animations to it. Original rig was indeed done in Maya, it must be laying somewhere. And yes, most animations suck, including some of my earlier ones.

[snatcher]

2 minutes ago, Arcturus said:

[...] And yes, most animations suck, including some of my earlier ones.

Allow me to disagree. AI may have its problems but comparing what was done 10-15 years ago with a modern view of what is possible and demanded or expected is nonsense.

[Taffingtaffer]

On 8/15/2025 at 5:21 PM, snatcher said:

I have a Chill Bro (working title) mod I have been tweaking and play-testing for months years. I may finish it and publish it someday...

That's reassuring; the length of the play-testing, not so much.  I guess that speaks for the current state of the AI, however improved it got over the years.

I'd like to mention the blackjack bashing again. The noise does in fact propagate towards AIs, but the real volume value is so low for them that functionally it is useless, despite sounding pretty loud for the player.
This is another big stinker that I'm more familiar with: sound indicators.

For starters, NPCs footsteps don't travel far enough to serve as a mechanic. This is thankfully rather easy to solve by increasing the volume of their steps, but it needs testing to not go overboard.
But the worst indicators are the player's... Leaving aside the questionable blackjack noises, there is an indicator that is absolutely broken: jumping.

Jumping always makes the loudest sound possible for AI, no matter if you are creeping+crouching, crouching, crouching+walking, creeping, walking or standing in place.
You'd think that's fine because Thief does the same, but TDM has hidden jump modifiers (the other movement states have pm_stepvol_X cvars) that makes the perceived jump noise quieter depending on the movement state.
This is baffling because TDM has an elegant "fall quietly when crouching" mechanic that actually makes less noise, whereas in Thief you have to carefully slide off your lower ball or you wake up the whole neighborhood.
I don't mean to sound bitter, but it wasn't long that we were debating whether the new, upcoming tone mapping looked good or bad. Where's the discussion about this!? Your own footsteps aren't being honest to you!

There is other aspects that could do with a real good cleanup. Pretty much all player footsteps' perceived volume is too quiet, and if you tinker with the values, you have to take in mind the real noise registered by AI (doesn't seem to be much info about this in the wiki) plus keep a close eye ear to every file sound's loudness; water and metal files have clipping (they go beyond 0db).
Some materials even recycle sounds. I recall Amadeus found good CC0 sounds for ice and broken glass footsteps, but looking at the .sndshd files, sound design hasn't been touched in years...

I have a quick&dirty "mod" with pumped up AI and player footstep volume, a left-over from when Daft Mugi, others and me tried to clean this up, but everyone has lost steam.
I guess I've made a brief return here because with the DS FM playthroughs, TDM came to mind and it generally makes you think "Deadly Shadows but better"; the exciment dies out once I look at the files' guts, though. And partially, the rather apathetic  mood in the forums Kudos to the active modders.
 

Edited August 17, 2025 by Taffingtaffer

[taffernicus]

On 8/15/2025 at 6:34 AM, New Horizon said:

Finding coders and animators to do it...is not easy.

I pretty much agree with this

[Arcturus]

On 8/15/2025 at 10:43 PM, snatcher said:

Allow me to disagree. AI may have its problems but comparing what was done 10-15 years ago with a modern view of what is possible and demanded or expected is nonsense.

I said animations suck, not AI. When compared to Thief games, not the standards of today. AI is flawed too, but that's not my field.