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Things that could be improved


Berny
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About the topic, the only moment I find the game boring is when you are missing some loot and you have no idea where to seek. I was playing Crystal Grave and I for about 20 minutes I lurked around looking for the missing 200 gold loot... However I guess there is no solution.

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About the topic, the only moment I find the game boring is when you are missing some loot and you have no idea where to seek. I was playing Crystal Grave and I for about 20 minutes I lurked around looking for the missing 200 gold loot... However I guess there is no solution.

I find a similar problem can arise early in some missions if you haven't yet grokked the mapper's approach when there's apparently nowhere to go: I'm in this situation *very* early on in Requiem, and a quick skim of the thread for the map convinces me I must be blind ... could swear I've been everywhere (I've clambered all over all the roofs too)! This problem is worse when it happens later on in a map, of course.

 

Obviously the solution is to go away and try again another day, but it can be very annoying.

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However I guess there is no solution.

 

Most missions only have a loot quantity level difference, so playing on a lower setting can ease that issue.

 

Also keeping your eyes open along the way to accumulate loot makes a big difference. You learn to quickly grok how a mapper stashes stuff when you play more missions.

"The measure of a man's character is what he would do if he knew he never would be found out."

- Baron Thomas Babington Macauley

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I find a similar problem can arise early in some missions if you haven't yet grokked the mapper's approach when there's apparently nowhere to go: I'm in this situation *very* early on in Requiem, and a quick skim of the thread for the map convinces me I must be blind ... could swear I've been everywhere (I've clambered all over all the roofs too)! This problem is worse when it happens later on in a map, of course.

 

Obviously the solution is to go away and try again another day, but it can be very annoying.

 

Hey Araneidae, let me know if you can't figure it out and I'll be happy to give you a hint :-). There's also a Let's Play on Youtube in case you get totally stumped.

But you should walk having internal dignity. Be a wonderful person who can dance pleasantly to the rhythm of the universe.

-Sun Myung Moon

 

My work blog: gfleisher.blogspot.com

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However I guess there is no solution.

 

Actually, if you are really that interested, there is a console command that will make loot wireframes appear through walls and such. I can't remember it, but you can look it up. It's technically cheating I guess, but you can do it, and sometimes it can be an interesting challenge finding out how to get to the loot.

What do you see when you turn out the light? I can't tell you but I know that it's mine.

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Actually, if you are really that interested, there is a console command that will make loot wireframes appear through walls and such. I can't remember it, but you can look it up. It's technically cheating I guess, but you can do it, and sometimes it can be an interesting challenge finding out how to get to the loot.

Well, it sounds better than my approach so far. If the frustration get excessive (to me it usually means about 20 minutes after getting all other objectives) I just type: god notarget noclip and scan the map linearly; when/if I get something I reload and continue.

 

 

Another thing is the AI, sometime the characters get stuck around the doors. They walk in circles in front of it, perhaps a check should be added so they notice, go a little away and try again.

Edited by ezze
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About the topic, the only moment I find the game boring is when you are missing some loot and you have no idea where to seek. I was playing Crystal Grave and I for about 20 minutes I lurked around looking for the missing 200 gold loot... However I guess there is no solution.

I agree. Being colourblind also doesn't help, so I just use tdm_show_loot if I think it's starting to get boring.

You can call me Phi, Numbers, Digits, Ratio, 16, 1618, or whatever really, as long as it's not Phil.

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Hey Araneidae, let me know if you can't figure it out and I'll be happy to give you a hint :-).

Think I'm on my way. I'd walked (well, climbed) straight past *two* openable windows or doors without noticing that they were openable, that's giving me a clue as to how things work. When I got

inside the church

I was stunned -- some outstanding mission design so far.

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  • 2 weeks later...

Hello, I'm new to these forums so excuse me for being a newb. :) First of all, I would like to say that I consider the Dark Mod one of the best games I've played in years. The mod itself is great and the FMs are mostly superb as well. I play TDM every day (well, night ;)) and that says a lot I think.

 

Now on to the things that could be improved IMHO.

 

1. Downloading and installing missions.

 

The system is a bit over-complicated I think and requires more attention from the player than it should. ATM you have to choose a mission from the download list, move it to the download section and then click again to begin the download. The whole download systems takes up much of the screen, leaving very little room for the description of the mission itself. So, if I, as a player, wish to get some information on the mission to decide whether I want to download it or not, I must click the More button to get there, and then return back and select it for download etc. I think the download system should be simplified and the crucial mission information should not be hidden behind a button. My suggestion is this: Leave the missions list on the left, if a mission is selected (single click) - display the mission information on the right (where the download section is now), with an option of download just under mission information. Also, after a mission is downloaded, let it install automatically and, if possible, without restarting of the game. Also, it should be possible to have "installed" all downloaded missions so that you can just start TDM, choose any mission you want and start playing without any more clicking/restarting (but I guess there are some technical obstacles that prevent this ATM).

 

2. Blackjacking

 

It is pain in the rear parts. And yes, I am a fan of Thief series so it is kind of expected that I won't like it. :) When I first started playing, it worked so randomly that I thought it was bugged. Since then I learned how to do it but the effort I had to put in was kind of not worth it IMHO and if I have an option not to knock someone out, I usually don't. Compared to the sheer fun I had knocking-out people in Thief, this system is way too difficult and hardcore for me to like it. And as I said, I played Thief A LOT so I don't make the basic mistakes. I can only imagine the frustration of new players who have no experience with this mechanics whatsoever. If TDM is to attract wider audience, this is the first (and one of the very few) thing I would change so that it is more forgiving.

 

3. Objectives after the mission start

 

This is a minor one. Once you start a mission and first Esc - usually to make your first save - you find out that you are on the Objectives page and have to switch to main menu. I think the first Esc should lead directly to main menu. Objectives are displayed before you start the mission and then whenever you press the hotkey so there is no need to remind them to the player upon first pressing Esc.

 

Okay, that's it for now. Again, I would like to stress that I love the game and the FMs and that everything I said is just an effort to improve the already great product.

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In regards to 2, yeah, blackjacking is really hard. I never played Thief, so I didn't come in with any expectations, but also without any skills whatsoever. You'll get used to it, using blackjacking only as a final resort.

You can call me Phi, Numbers, Digits, Ratio, 16, 1618, or whatever really, as long as it's not Phil.

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  • 3 weeks later...

An oddity that I've found in TDM standalone is with one of the thunder sounds. You can hear what sounds like (very loud) birds chirping right before one of the sounds play. This is quite strange when you're inside a mansion like A Night to Remember. I will do research in a bit and tell you the exact wav/ogg file in case you want to fix it for the next release.

 

Perhaps that bit of the sound can be snipped off with Audacity or something.

Edited by lost_soul

--- War does not decide who is right, war decides who is left.

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Alright Springheel, I found them. They are inside tdm_sound_ambient01.pk4 and the offending files are thunder_close3.wav and thunder_close4.wav.

 

Since they are wav files, want me to fix them with Audacity? I can cut the chirping off and mail them to you.

 

EDIT: I fixed the two wavs by cutting the chirp off and introducing a tiny fade-in so that it isn't jarring. I have them in game and it sounds fine. Let me know if you want them.

Edited by lost_soul
  • Like 1

--- War does not decide who is right, war decides who is left.

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Hello, I'm new to these forums so excuse me for being a newb. :) First of all, I would like to say that I consider the Dark Mod one of the best games I've played in years. The mod itself is great and the FMs are mostly superb as well. I play TDM every day (well, night ;)) and that says a lot I think.

 

Now on to the things that could be improved IMHO.

 

1. Downloading and installing missions.

 

The system is a bit over-complicated I think and requires more attention from the player than it should. ATM you have to choose a mission from the download list, move it to the download section and then click again to begin the download. The whole download systems takes up much of the screen, leaving very little room for the description of the mission itself. So, if I, as a player, wish to get some information on the mission to decide whether I want to download it or not, I must click the More button to get there, and then return back and select it for download etc. I think the download system should be simplified and the crucial mission information should not be hidden behind a button. My suggestion is this: Leave the missions list on the left, if a mission is selected (single click) - display the mission information on the right (where the download section is now), with an option of download just under mission information. Also, after a mission is downloaded, let it install automatically and, if possible, without restarting of the game. Also, it should be possible to have "installed" all downloaded missions so that you can just start TDM, choose any mission you want and start playing without any more clicking/restarting (but I guess there are some technical obstacles that prevent this ATM).

 

2. Blackjacking

 

It is pain in the rear parts. And yes, I am a fan of Thief series so it is kind of expected that I won't like it. :) When I first started playing, it worked so randomly that I thought it was bugged. Since then I learned how to do it but the effort I had to put in was kind of not worth it IMHO and if I have an option not to knock someone out, I usually don't. Compared to the sheer fun I had knocking-out people in Thief, this system is way too difficult and hardcore for me to like it. And as I said, I played Thief A LOT so I don't make the basic mistakes. I can only imagine the frustration of new players who have no experience with this mechanics whatsoever. If TDM is to attract wider audience, this is the first (and one of the very few) thing I would change so that it is more forgiving.

 

3. Objectives after the mission start

 

This is a minor one. Once you start a mission and first Esc - usually to make your first save - you find out that you are on the Objectives page and have to switch to main menu. I think the first Esc should lead directly to main menu. Objectives are displayed before you start the mission and then whenever you press the hotkey so there is no need to remind them to the player upon first pressing Esc.

 

Okay, that's it for now. Again, I would like to stress that I love the game and the FMs and that everything I said is just an effort to improve the already great product.

  1. I don't really see a problem in pressing the "more" button, and as all those missions are free, I guess you are downloading them all sooner or later anyways.
  2. Everybody who is new to TDM tends to complain about the blackjacking. Yes, it is more difficult then in the thief series, but once you got used to it it's working like a charm. Personally I start tending to not include them in future FM's, as they make life way too easy for an experienced TDM player.
  3. This does not happen to me. Very weird. :blink:

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This is a minor one. Once you start a mission and first Esc - usually to make your first save - you find out that you are on the Objectives page and have to switch to main menu. I think the first Esc should lead directly to main menu.

 

If the last screen you looked at was the Objective screen, then it will go straight there when you press Esc. Otherwise, it goes to the main menu page.

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  1. I don't really see a problem in pressing the "more" button, and as all those missions are free, I guess you are downloading them all sooner or later anyways.
  2. Everybody who is new to TDM tends to complain about the blackjacking. Yes, it is more difficult then in the thief series, but once you got used to it it's working like a charm. Personally I start tending to not include them in future FM's, as they make life way too easy for an experienced TDM player.
  3. This does not happen to me. Very weird. :blink:

 

1. The current download mechanism is decent. It does its job. I just think it could be improved to do its job even better and spare the player unnecessary steps. That's all.

2. Well, for starters, not everyone is an experienced TDM player and one might not become one if the game frustrates him from the very beginning. But that's not the main point I'd like to make here. I think there's enough room for people who would enjoy easier blackjacking and for those who like it the way it is. It can be entirely optional. That would allow everyone to be happy about their game. Right?

3. Well, it does for me. :(

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If the last screen you looked at was the Objective screen, then it will go straight there when you press Esc. Otherwise, it goes to the main menu page.

 

The objectives are displayed right after the mission intro. I choose the difficulty setting, click on Start mission, the mission loads and voila - the first Esc takes me to the Objectives. Not sure if you meant this and if the objectives at the start are basically the same objectives that you open by pressing Esc, but that's how my TDM works.

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Compared to the sheer fun I had knocking-out people in Thief, this system is way too difficult and hardcore for me to like it.

 

Can you be more specific? What is it you find difficult?

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Can you be more specific? What is it you find difficult?

 

I still get failed attempts at KO because I either don't hit the exact spot I'm supposed to or I make a slight noise at the very last moment before my KO attempt (typically when standing up from the crouched position so that I can hit the head).

 

As to the first problem, I think hitting the general area of the head should be sufficient to get KO. Now I don't have first hand experience with blacjacking (from either standpoint, lol) but I believe that my character does and that he knows what to do. There will always be factors that you can't reproduce in the game, so what you see is basically an approximation of what you would see if the situation was real. If you can lock picks by listening to various clicks the character makes while doing the actual work, with the same logic it isn't - I hope - entirely nonsensical to use the same approach with blackjacking.

 

The second problem is caused by the absence of confusion on the part of the victim. Again, I am no expert at blacjacking people or surprising them from behind in general, but I do know that if I heard some noise behind me at the very last second before being blackjacked, I wouldn't even had time to think about what that noise was. And even if I could quickly turn around (at least partially), what could I do? Before my eyes would focus on the attacker and realize what he was doing, it would again be too late.

 

As I said earlier, it is possible to learn how to do it according to TDM rules, but for me, it wasn't fun. And it still isn't, sadly. I enjoy the rest of the game very much.

Edited by Dworkin
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I wonder if some of them who do not like the current blackjacking could do a community effort and make a Simplified Blackjack Pack (SBP). SBP would be a custom .pk4 that the user puts into their TDM folder. .pk4 files override the core mod files and could have a bunch of effects.

 

In the case of SBP, it could:

make all human AI KO-able from any direction when they are not alarmed.

 

I'm not intimately aquainted with the KO code, but I think the SBP.pk4 would only redefine some AI and head .def files.

 

TDM is highly moddable in this regard. I am surprised there aren't many .pk4 mods like this.

Clipper

-The mapper's best friend.

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It's very hard to judge exactly what the problem is, because often the reports from people that find it difficult contain observations that run counter to how the system actually works. So is something going wrong on their system? Or is it something else tripping them up that they're unaware of?

 

 

 

I still get failed attempts at KO because I either don't hit the exact spot I'm supposed to

 

As far as blackjacking is concerned, there are 3 types of AI. Easy KO, Difficult KO, and Immune.

 

There is no "exact spot on the head" for Easy KO AI (bare-headed, unalert). There is a collision box around their head, and as long as you hit it, from any direction, they will be KO'd.

 

For Difficult KO AI (alert guards, or unalert guards with helmets) the collision box only covers the back of their head. If you hit them from the front or sides, it will fail.

 

Immune AI (alert guards with helmets, or relaxed guards with elite helmets) obviously cannot be KO'd at all.

 

to or I make a slight noise at the very last moment before my KO attempt (typically when standing up from the crouched position so that I can hit the head).

 

Making a slight noise should not affect your KO attempt at all. AI will not turn around until they go to Level 3 alert, which requires a significant amount of noise. Even if you did alert a guard to Level 3, as long as you hit them on the back of the head (before they can turn 90 degrees) they will still be KO'd (in fact, there is a slight grace period...I've KO'd armed guards in the face after they turned around and still had it work, although it's a very tiny window).

 

So the way the system is supposed to work doesn't quite match what you're describing. It's possible there's a bug, or it's possible something else is happening. Could you be getting too close and bumping into the AI? Could you be getting too close so that your blackjack goes PAST their head? See here: http://forums.thedar...post__p__334375

 

Also, see if this is useful:

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V31S7w4qBcE

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That's a good suggestion Sotha, but taking a quick look, there are two spawnargs covering "blackjack_headbox", but it already is quite large, making it bigger seems like you'd be using the Vulcan death grip on their shoulders or knocking them down by swinging next to their shoulders.

 

The spawnargs for the two "ko_angle"s are basically set to 360°, hard to make it larger than any direction at all! Obviously it's less when they are alert, about a third, so someone could make it so you could knock out alert guards while in front of them. And they could also increase how alert a guard has to be before things change, so if a guard is running them through with a sword, they could still knock him out.

 

I also just took at what is taught in the Training Mission, to perhaps suggest more blackjack details be shared with users, but it already says, "Don't get too close or you'll bump into him and he'll attack." The only other thing I could see conveying is you may blackjack guys in smaller helmets, but that would take away some game-play discovery that you can.

"The measure of a man's character is what he would do if he knew he never would be found out."

- Baron Thomas Babington Macauley

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A skeleton head with a hood on similar to the thief and different from the revenant, to give revenant more variable appearances. After seeing the hooded revenant in Crystal Grave, I wished he had a skull face and not a human face.

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