Things that could be improved

[lost_soul]

Yep, you can relock doors just like Gman says. I had a guard investigating noises I made and I ran into a closet and locked myself in. I heard him try to open the door and he was unsuccessful.

 

Note that mappers can supposedly override this, allowing a guard to unlock the door even if you stole his key (like magic).

[Deadlove]

You can do that now. I think all you have to do is use the key on an unlocked door and it'll lock again. (Might be wrong about the method, but re-locking is provided for.)

 

Hmm...tried this on a guard who went in the Warden's office in WS3, I guess I did something wrong.

[Springheel]

Mappers set AI as able to open certain locked doors.

 

I remember in Requiem, I opened the door to the

 

 

watch captain's office,

 

 

and he came in to investigate. I slipped out, closed the door and locked it on him, and he was stuck.

 

Felt very satisfying, although a little unrealistic that he just took it quietly, instead of yelling and pounding the door.

 

More realistic behaviour for trapped guards is one thing I'd love to see, though it's a huge headache to anticipate behaviour that makes sense.

[Obsttorte]

Yep. Use the key on the door and it will lock.

 

Regarding the window/door thingy: It has already established as some sort of standard, not only in TDM but in Thief FM's as well IMHO, that doors and windows that can not be entered through are unfrobable to avoid frustration. Most gamers know that and are expecting that behaviour. Although it is up to the mapper to change that, most people may not like that.

 

Having transparent windows with little rooms behind to create some sort of livingness in the scene is of course possible, but as always a matter of time and performance considerations.

 

Lords and Legacy had lots of transparent windows as already mentioned, but it also had not the best performance.

[wesp5]

It has already established as some sort of standard, not only in TDM but in Thief FM's as well IMHO, that doors and windows that can not be entered through are unfrobable to avoid frustration.

 

BTW, I have found jewel boxes that do light up when in focus, but stay dark when using lockpicks. I guess they need a special key, but shouldn't they show the red auras with the lockpicks like everything else that can't be picked? This is either a bug or inconsistent in my opinion!

 

I also have a suggestion that concerns both training missions included with The Dark Mod. It annoys me that there is no way to complete them so they are shown as unfinished in the mission list. I play on and off over a long time and the ticks on that list are most of time the only thing that shows me whether I have already played a mission or not. Just add an exit or something that finishes those missions in the correct way, please!

[Springheel]

BTW, I have found jewel boxes that do light up when in focus, but stay dark when using lockpicks.

 

If something highlights when you don't have lockpicks, then it will highlight when they're out too. But you have to get closer to highlight things when you have your lockpicks out.

 

I also have a suggestion that concerns both training missions included with The Dark Mod. It annoys me that there is no way to complete them so they are shown as unfinished in the mission list.

 

There's only one training mission, and you're right, it cannot be completed. You probably could add it manually to the completed list if it bothers you that much.

[RJFerret]

There's only one training mission, and you're right, it cannot be completed. You probably could add it manually to the completed list if it bothers you that much.

 

Which is what I did for the convenience. The file is in your "fms" folder, make a backup copy first: missions.tdminfo

 

(This isn't the first time we've heard the suggestion that the training have completable objectives.)

[wesp5]

If something highlights when you don't have lockpicks, then it will highlight when they're out too. But you have to get closer to highlight things when you have your lockpicks out.

 

Hm, I usually do that. What is the reason anyway that a key can be used from a larger distance than a lockpick? Doesn't look consistent to me and might be worth tweaking.

 

There's only one training mission, and you're right, it cannot be completed. You probably could add it manually to the completed list if it bothers you that much.

 

Thanks for the tip but why can't this be added to the mission itself? Also there is some other kind of training mission with different floors with the same problem.

[wesp5]

(This isn't the first time we've heard the suggestion that the training have completable objectives.)

 

Then why has this never been implemented? Does nobody want to touch that mission again ?

[At0mic]

wesp5, this is rather off-topic but your username reminds me of a fellow who made some rather neat unofficial patches for Vampire: The Masquerade - Bloodlines...

[wesp5]

wesp5, this is rather off-topic but your username reminds me of a fellow who made some rather neat unofficial patches for Vampire: The Masquerade - Bloodlines...

 

Yeah, that's me ! There is a lot of Thief like stealth in Bloodlines and I already was a great Thief fan before I started patching. Just recently I discovered that TDM was finally stand-alone, and now I'm playing through the fan missions when I have some time. I wish we had something like that for Bloodlines...

Edited March 5, 2014 by wesp5

[Springheel]

Thanks for the tip but why can't this be added to the mission itself? Also there is some other kind of training mission with different floors with the same problem.

 

If you're talking about the blackjack trainer, yes, that one has no objectives either. Neither of those are meant to be "completed"--they're places for players to practice things they'll experience in actual missions.

 

What is the reason anyway that a key can be used from a larger distance than a lockpick? Doesn't look consistent to me and might be worth tweaking.

 

Because lockpicking is much more difficult and finicky than using a key. You can't lockpick at arm's length (although I actually thought the frob distance with lockpicks was the same as with keys).

[RJFerret]

Then why has this never been implemented? Does nobody want to touch that mission again ?

 

Because the needs of the many outweigh the wants of the two? ;-)

 

If you consider the ramifications, a graphic checkmark with no functional purpose, which the user may enable with a couple minutes of editing a text file, or hours of editing a mission, beta testing, all which might confuse new players...

 

Some ramifications:

-the mission would end and fade to black when the objectives are met, to return to another room/practice more the player would have to go through multiple screens to start anew.

-in an environment where a lot of information needs to be conveyed, having additional extraneous info doesn't seem beneficial, but distracting

-if simply setup, how to avoid accidental completion for users who don't know movement controls yet and will stumble into it?

-if more involved setup, when/where to you present the info to the player without distracting from more important messages?

-how do you support players who then fail to complete it?

 

Although I thought objectives would be motivating for some players, as a new player, it certainly wouldn't have affected me. I was motivated to edit the text file though.

 

Presumably the team had debate about it when they were doing it.

[grayman]

it's a huge headache to anticipate behaviour that makes sense.

 

And that, peanut gallery, is at the heart of the constant war one wages with artificially intelligent entities.

[wesp5]

-if simply setup, how to avoid accidental completion for users who don't know movement controls yet and will stumble into it?

 

My solution would be to just add a door to the main area with the info "To complete the training exit through this door." instead of "You can leave the training anytime using ESC." or similar like it is right now, which is true for any mission...

Edited March 5, 2014 by wesp5

[New Horizon]

The training mission isn't really meant to be completed though. It's just a mission you can hop into at any time to practice. If it's a bother and you're not going to use it, why not just uninstall it?

[grayman]

The training mission isn't really meant to be completed though. It's just a mission you can hop into at any time to practice. If it's a bother and you're not going to use it, why not just uninstall it?

 

+1

 

Given the work involved in these two choices:

 

1 - Add a mechanism to the training mission that allows it to be completed, rebuild, retest to make sure that nothing was broken in the process, beta test, package it, bump the revision number, release it.

 

or

 

2 - Player who is finished with training and won't return to it uninstalls the mission

 

the clear choice is to leave it to the Player.

 

The training mission works as designed, and is clear about there being no "completion" state.

[wesp5]

While I understand your reasoning, extra work is extra work , you might still keep this in mind in case the training mission needs to be rebuild for some other reasons. To me it's just a bad example to other missions regarding the mission list (yes, I encountered some more now that can't be completed) and the only training mission in any game I played that can't be finished. Also you can hop into any other mission as well to replay it, so that's no argument !

 

But now for something different: Is there a way to switch between missions without restarting the whole game including the ugly quick-cut-to-desktop-and-back effect? That would be a small improvement too.

[New Horizon]

It's not a training mission in the sense that it's part of a campaign though, it's simply a group of training areas for practice. That's how it was intended to be. Perhaps a more accurate term would be a Training Map as opposed to Mission. Perhaps the word mission implies it can be finished.

[grayman]

But now for something different: Is there a way to switch between missions without restarting the whole game including the ugly quick-cut-to-desktop-and-back effect? That would be a small improvement too.

 

No.

[New Horizon]

But now for something different: Is there a way to switch between missions without restarting the whole game including the ugly quick-cut-to-desktop-and-back effect? That would be a small improvement too.

 

That would probably be a pretty big undertaking as the game engine has to do that in order to flush the existing mission and load the new ones.

[skacky]

Totally unrelated, but welcome, wesp5! Your work on Vampire is outstanding.

[wesp5]

That would probably be a pretty big undertaking as the game engine has to do that in order to flush the existing mission and load the new ones.

I thought as much. This might even be a Doom 3 engine issue, because if I remember correctly Doom 3 needed to be restarted just for switching the screen resolution.

 

Honestly, I love your work, but if I see some small details that could be improved IMHO, I'm all for asking if this is possible . So here is another suggestion: For reading notes and books you have to press the use key, but to stop reading you need to press attack. I hate behaviour like this in other games too! Is there a reason why you can't press use again? Maybe disable it for a second so people won't auto-close something too soon. It's possible in many games and I always try use again before remembering that in TDM it's attack. And this although I don't want to attack the book or the notes in the first place !

 

Otherwise I find the implementation of readable items much better than in the Thief reboot, where you have to go to several menus for this. The same goes for the whole HUD interface which looks much too modern and out of place in the reboot, while yours captures the atmosphere of the original games just fine!

Edited March 5, 2014 by wesp5

[New Horizon]

I thought as much. This might even be a Doom 3 engine issue, because if I remember correctly Doom 3 needed to be restarted just for switching the screen resolution.

 

Honestly, I love your work, but if I see some small details that could be improved IMHO, I'm all for asking if this is possible . So here is another suggestion: For reading notes and books you have to press the use key, but to stop reading you need to press attack. I hate behaviour like this in other games too! Is there a reason why you can't press use again? Maybe disable it for a second so people won't auto-close something too soon. It's possible in many games and I always try use again before remembering that in TDM it's attack. And this although I don't want to attack the book or the notes in the first place !

 

Otherwise I find the implementation of readable items much better than in the Thief reboot, where you have to go to several menus for this. The same goes for the whole HUD interface which looks much too modern and out of place in the reboot, while yours captures the atmosphere of the original games just fine!

 

You can also look away from the readable to get out of it too. No need to press anything.

[Springheel]

For reading notes and books you have to press the use key, but to stop reading you need to press attack. I hate behaviour like this in other games too! Is there a reason why you can't press use again?

 

Are you talking about readables from your inventory, or static ones? I thought you _could_ press use to put away inventory readables.