Things that could be improved

[Goldwell]

You can do that now. I think all you have to do is use the key on an unlocked door and it'll lock again. (Might be wrong about the method, but re-locking is provided for.)

 

Well damn I never knew that, TDM surprises me all the time with it's badass-ness

[RJFerret]

Perhaps confusion between use/frob? A readable in world, as said, one can just move away, attack or hit the "use" key to stop viewing.

 

A readable in inventory, "use" displays it to read, and also stops viewing, or you may attack as well.

 

(You wouldn't want the use key to bring up readables out in world, as the priority would be to use a health potion, or flashbomb, or something else you have queued up in inventory.)

 

We all go through this when new, why multiple "activate" keys, but the reason is they make sense and function would be limited if you tried to combine into one key.

[wesp5]

Perhaps confusion between use/frob? A readable in world, as said, one can just move away, attack or hit the "use" key to stop viewing.

 

I'm not sure about the meaning of the word "frob", but I do mean "readables in world" and you can't stop reading them with the same key you started doing it. Which is what's annoying because my finger is already on that key!

 

A readable in inventory, "use" displays it to read, and also stops viewing, or you may attack as well.

 

Here it is consistent then, you can stop reading how you started it...

Edited March 6, 2014 by wesp5

[Lux]

Readables in the world you right click 'frob' to read and then you can either click Use or attack to close them. I have "C" bound to Use to that's how I always close them. Its nice though if you're reading a book and a guard attacks you to be able to hit attack if you're paniced and it will close the book.

[demagogue]

Yeah, that's me ! There is a lot of Thief like stealth in Bloodlines and I already was a great Thief fan before I started patching.

 

Hey, cool, that's a great patch you worked on.

Hope you stick around & get to know TDM.

[RJFerret]

I'm not sure about the meaning of the word "frob"

 

Yeah, this is confusing, why they use jargon here I have no idea. "Frob" = "activate" essentially. Or "reach out and touch something". It's the key for when something is highlighted in the game world to make something happen with it. Note, it's critical it's separate from "use" as that activates your inventory selection (as mentioned before), or also stops reading stuff.

 

Here it is consistent then, you can stop reading how you started it...

 

So it's just a perspective thing...

 

Actually "use" is consistent. It stops reading stuff no matter what the condition, or where it came from. Don't worry, it'll become second nature soon enough!

[wesp5]

Actually "use" is consistent. It stops reading stuff no matter what the condition, or where it came from. Don't worry, it'll become second nature soon enough!

 

But this thread is about things that could be improved, so please add the Frob key to the list of keys that closes in world readables in the next version !

[Deadlove]

I got the relocking doors working, thanks guys! I was using the wrong "use" key, I was using the frob key instead of inventory use.

[demagogue]

Both of you will get used to the idea that 'frob' means in the world, 'use' means in your hands. Keeping it consistent is helpful in the long run.

 

As for the term 'frob', it's a really specific thing, activating by clicking a highlighted object. So even though it's not obvious at first, it's a super useful word that 'activate' doesn't capture, since there are dozens of ways to activate something but only one way to frob it.

[wesp5]

Keeping it consistent is helpful in the long run.

 

But it isn't consistent like it is right now! Use can be stopped by the same key you started it with, Frob can't. It can't be so difficult to add another key to stop Frob, no? Also what is the sense of this thread when all the answers I ever get to suggestions are "We won't do it. We can't do it. Get used to it." Do you plan to improve TDM or not?

Edited March 7, 2014 by wesp5

[RJFerret]

Erm, I don't believe nobody has said they won't, nor they can't. However, the suggestion has been made in the past (I myself last year said something similar), and people are responding so you know your contribution is appreciated and heard. This is also a helpful community that would love for you to not have to wait to appreciate the game, but enlighten to other views that might ease your experience. :-)

 

If the game were modified to work how every new user is accustomed to their previous games played, it would serve nobody! One solution I use is a programmable keyboard, so that the same keys do the same things in different games/different character skills in the same game.

 

Does that mean your suggestion is invalid? Nopes. It just means you have another option at your disposal. :-)

 

The purpose of the thread is what you initially used it for when you offered your insight. However rather than your suggestion just being met with silence, folks like to offer greater awareness and alternatives that might make your current play more enjoyable.

 

You never know, a future version might have the frob function do something other than activate things like you ask. Or conversely, someone else might like the idea and provide an alternative.

 

I imagine TDM will continue to see improvements, will they be what you individually consider an improvement? From this course of conversation, I'm guessing maybe not?

[Rejlive]

Ability to scale certain environments (not just mantling) and climb trees , and of course a thief that doesn't sound like he's wearing clogs, even the guards sound like they have hooves for feet, I feel more like a master noise maker than master thief

[wesp5]

If the game were modified to work how every new user is accustomed to their previous games played, it would serve nobody!

 

Yeah, I know this from patching Bloodlines: You can't do everything that people want. Still it looks to me as if my suggestion about the training mission was a very old one that some people even hack game files to get the same result, but nothing was done about it for years! Honestly I could do something like that in Bloodlines in an hour without even recompiling the map and I don't have an official SDK or the source code! My bit about the Frob key for stopping to read wouldn't take anything away for anybody only add something valuable, but then you would probably access the source code for that. Maybe I'm judging your possibilities wrong with a SDK and a Source, but with Bloodlines I usually do things like that immediately before I forget them !

 

As for more suggestions: Could it be added that hitting candles with the Blackjack would extinguish them? Which would be quicker than picking them up to sniff them out.

Edited March 8, 2014 by wesp5

[Springheel]

Could it be added that hitting candles with the Blackjack would extinguish them? Which would be quicker than picking them up to sniff them out.

 

If you knock the candle over with your blackjack, it will go out after a few seconds. An awfully loud method, though.

 

I usually do things like that immediately before I forget them

 

Are you aware of our bugtracker page?

 

http://bugs.thedarkmod.com/my_view_page.php

[wesp5]

Are you aware of our bugtracker page?

http://bugs.thedarkm...y_view_page.php

 

Ah, I thought there must be something like that if many people are involved, The Babylon Project has something similar, but because I maintain the Bloodlines patch all by myself it's much easier to implement a good suggestion as soon as I hear about it . So is this valid for improvements as well?

[Wallace]

I mentioned this in another thread, but I think it would be good if the sheath weapon button would pull the equipped weapon back out if pushed again. Like its function in an elder scrolls game. Sheathing my sword with F, then pushing 2 to get it back out seems a little clunky.

[grayman]

So is this valid for improvements as well?

 

The process is to discuss a proposal on the forum, as you've done here, and if there appears to be enough support for it, to create a bugtracker "feature request".

 

At that point, it goes into the database of things that devs can work on.

 

This doesn't guarantee that it'll be worked on, however, since we're constantly triaging. It's not like we have a horde of people behind the curtain.

[Radiant]

[...] , and of course a thief that doesn't sound like he's wearing clogs, even the guards sound like they have hooves for feet, I feel more like a master noise maker than master thief

I must agree on this point.

[Springheel]

 

I must agree on this point.

 

What would you do instead?

[wesp5]

The process is to discuss a proposal on the forum, as you've done here, and if there appears to be enough support for it, to create a bugtracker "feature request".

 

So could I now just go ahead and create a feature request, at least for the training mission issue that was requested already, or do I need to get a developer to do it?

 

Also I support the request to equip a sheathed weapon again with the sheath weapon key, which in principle is the same problem I have with the in world readables: Actions like that should be un-doable with the same key! Maybe both issues could be fixed at the same time as they supposedly need the same kind of key-access-programing.

Edited March 8, 2014 by wesp5

[Springheel]

I can tell you right now that the training mission thing is not going to happen.

 

The key issue seems reasonable.

[Lux]

But this thread is about things that could be improved, so please add the Frob key to the list of keys that closes in world readables in the next version !

 

The issue with this is that Frob (interact) is used to interact with items in the world. So you can Frob a candle and pick it up. Then you can manipulate it using the "Manipulate" key. Some items, like candles, also have a separate function like "extinguish" or "relight" which the Use key is used for. So you can Frob a candle, manipulate it, then extinguish it, then pressing Frob again puts the candle back down or you can press Attack to throw the object.

 

Probably the issue lies in the fact that there are two types of readables in the world. Those which you CAN pick up (-->inventory) and those which you can NOT pick up.

 

For readables that you CAN pick up, you Frob to pick them up and they go to your inventory. After the Readable is in your inventory like any other inventory item, you press the Use key to Use that item. In the case of an inventory Readable, it opens the book. Consequently it also closes the book. So here the behavior is consistent with all other inventory items.

 

For readables that you can NOT pick up, you Frob them to interact and it does the only thing interacting with a stationary book can do, it opens it. Closing these readables works like closing all other readables works, with the Use key; so there isn't a special case defined for it because there is already one defined for inventory readables that works. Its ineffecient otherwise.

 

So there are two ways to look at this situation. One where it doesn't make sense because its not an inventory item, like for instance a candle, so you'd think, "I frob to interact with it, why can't I frob to stop interacting with it?"

 

The other where it does make sense is, this is how I close inventory readables so this is also how I close in-world readables. So closing a readable of any kind uses the same key.

 

The irony is that because you can Frob a candle and then press Attack to throw that candle, you can also Frob an in-world readable and then press Attack to....close the readable, because it can't be thrown. Its a little confusing at first, admittedly. But really taking either case as the example of how it works, its six of one and a half dozen of another. There are two ways that would work and the more effecient choice was made because that code aready existed. (just a guess)

 

I'm sure if the behavior worked as you suggest, wesp5, there would be people wondering why all readables don't close the same way.

 

Sorry for the drawn out explaination, I just don't want you thinking that the request is simply ignored.

 

I don't know if you've every played ARMA before but talk about some initially daunting controls. The fact is though, after you're accustomed to them through playing, they do make sense and our initial impressions/problems will sometimes fade by acclimating ourselves to the individual game.

 

It doesn't mean the TDM team doesn't take/use/welcome suggestions because they do. They're just already familiar with many of the suggestions made and they've already weighed the benefits/consequences of many of them and so sometimes they give rather boiler plate responses to things. Don't take offense to it though, just realize there's probably a reason and some of us (like me) that aren't on the team need to trust the teams judgement.

 

They're great people. (or at least seem to be)

Edited March 8, 2014 by Lux

[Radiant]

What would you do instead?

I would say overall slightly quiter. Maybe less bright for player footsteps and less reverb for NPCs is the answer.

If you compare

tdm_sound_sfx02.pk4\sound\sfx\movement\footsteps\player\stone_walk01.ogg

to

tdm_sound_sfx02.pk4\sound\sfx\movement\footsteps\player\stone_walk03.ogg

tdm_sound_sfx02.pk4\sound\sfx\movement\footsteps\player\stone_walk04.ogg

you can hear that 01 (and 05) are brighter and I would say bright sounds are more present to people. So replace 01 and 05?

 

I wouldn't give these sound that much reverb:

tdm_sound_sfx02.pk4\sound\sfx\movement\footsteps\player\wood_run01.ogg ...to 04 and

tdm_sound_sfx02.pk4\sound\sfx\movement\footsteps\player\wood_jump_land01.ogg ... to 04

 

Two knocks are hearable in

tdm_sound_sfx02.pk4\sound\sfx\movement\footsteps\player\wood_crouch_creep01.ogg and

tdm_sound_sfx02.pk4\sound\sfx\movement\footsteps\player\wood_crouch_creep02.ogg

but not in

tdm_sound_sfx02.pk4\sound\sfx\movement\footsteps\player\wood_crouch_creep03.ogg

tdm_sound_sfx02.pk4\sound\sfx\movement\footsteps\player\wood_crouch_creep04.ogg

I would say, as a masterthief you try to avoid putting your foot down with two sounds while chrouching.

 

The "tile" footsteps for human (not player) are "overdone" and I think this one is the sound that bothers me most. The others for human sound ok.

Less reverb here again? (01 is the brightest.)

Or we could experiment with just heavier footsteps for this one.

 

I know it's hard to create good sounds and make the player aware of the fact that his caused sounds are really important so don't take it amiss.

Edited March 8, 2014 by Radiant

[grayman]

The key issue seems reasonable.

 

So this "key issue" is the ability to raise a weapon that you previously lowered?

 

The default key for this is the tilde (~). What that key means is "raise fists", which comes from the olden Doom days. So as I move my finger along that row on the keyboard from left to right, I can choose which weapon I want to raise, from fists to vine arrows. In that context, having each key raise a weapon makes sense, and there's no concept of lowering a weapon.

 

Since our hero doesn't use his fists, the meaning of the key in TDM has changed to "Put away weapon". The code behind it remains the same, but since there are no fists to raise, the current weapon is lowered but no new weapon rises to take its place.

 

Has the action of the tilde key been reassigned to a different key?

 

And now the requested behavior is that the "Put away weapon" key should also mean "Raise the weapon that was last lowered"?

 

I'm just trying to understand the request.

 

In the same vein, one might request that hitting the key that raises weapon X should also lower it if hit again. It's the same argument: "I'd like it to be a toggle key, and not a selection key."

 

In TDM, the weapon keys (including the tilde) are selection keys, and turning them into toggle keys probably isn't a trivial exercise.

[Lux]

If you knock the candle over with your blackjack, it will go out after a few seconds. An awfully loud method, though.

 

Many don't seem to realize also that because of the physics engine you can also shoot candles with broadhead arrows and knock them over which will, within a few seconds, result in the candle being extinguished.

 

In fact, that's all I use broad head arrows for. (unless there are large spiders)

 

Will AI relight candles that are misplaced like this, i.e.,"on the floor"? I seem to recall them having done so, picked up the item and placed it back in its place and relighted it. Maybe in No Honor Among Thieves? I could be misremembering though.

 

Does it have to be set by the mapper or is it default behavior after the mapper sets the AI to relight? Are there animations for this?