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Things that could be improved


Berny

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Hmm, the first time I got it was for necro'ing a 3-year-old thread. This time I got it after double-posting. Maybe the forum is punishing common forum sins and it is deliberate.

 

Edit. Ah, you (RPG) mean deliberate by me. I thought you meant you get that sig sometimes too, but you meant you see mine. So it is just me. But not deliberate. I can turn my sig off, but I'd rather find & fix the glitch if possible.

What do you see when you turn out the light? I can't tell you but I know that it's mine.

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  • 1 month later...

Okay, I'm using this old thread to post some suggestions that came to me when I just now started playing some fan missions with TDM 2.03:

 

- Thanks for implementing my earlier idea of closing readables with the FROB key! But now I noticed that the map can't be closed like this even when it was opened by the USE key.

 

- As posted elsewhere, it might be good to add some more explanations to what the USE key really does to the controls menu, like INV USE (CANDLE OUT, BODY UP) or similar.

 

- It's still hard to get valuables out of chests because the bottom is frobable. I thought there was a suggestion to only make the lid frobable once the chest has been opened?

 

- I'm still annoyed now and then that the FROB distance for lockpicks is smaller than for keys. This may be realistic but gameplay wise it's not good to move closer just then.

 

- Last not least, again I noticed that loading a mission takes a lot of time which could be covered by running the intro cutscenes or texts in parrallel. Is this not possible?

 

Update: Another thing that I noticed while playing the great The Cadeceus of St. Alban mission by Bikerdude:

 

- Shouldn't it be possible to snuff out stationary small oil lamps like the candles?

Edited by wesp5
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I've noticed that some AI have animations defined for sleeping while sitting, but it would be nice if they used them when both "sleeping" "1" and "sitting" "1" were set. A quick test suggests that that currently produces normal sitting behaviour.

Some things I'm repeatedly thinking about...

 

- louder scream when you're dying

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I've noticed that some AI have animations defined for sleeping while sitting, but it would be nice if they used them when both "sleeping" "1" and "sitting" "1" were set. A quick test suggests that that currently produces normal sitting behaviour.

That sounds like it wants a fix. How *do* mappers currently make sitting sleeping AI then? Do you use the pathing system?

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That sounds like it wants a fix. How *do* mappers currently make sitting sleeping AI then? Do you use the pathing system?

I don't remember offhand ever seeing one in a mission. (Edit: if somebody wanted to add one currently, maybe a prop similar to atdm: animation_replace_lean would be the cleanest way?)

 

Not all human AI have the animations in the first place - e.g. wenches seem to lack them - so maybe it's an unfinished feature. (I've also had trouble with women looking messed up when they're drunk - and in the game - and my guess is that it's because they don't have an idle_drunk animation.) Perhaps Springheel or someone else who knows about the AI animations has an idea.

Edited by VanishedOne

Some things I'm repeatedly thinking about...

 

- louder scream when you're dying

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The sitting while sleeping animation is a relatively new add, so I don't think it's been used yet. I'm foggy on the details on how to use it. Did Grayman add a spawnarg for that?

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I can't find one under Add Property, and the description for "sleep_location" is still "1 = sleep on a bed, 0 = sleep on the floor".

 

Edit: with some more searching I found http://bugs.thedarkmod.com/view.php?id=3820via http://forums.thedarkmod.com/topic/16460-sleeping-ai-get-them-to-sleep-on-the-ground/page-2 and it's still open, so it looks as though this is indeed an unfinished feature.

Edited by VanishedOne

Some things I'm repeatedly thinking about...

 

- louder scream when you're dying

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For the moment, you might be able to hack it by using anim_replace spawnargs that replace the regular sleeping animation with the sitting one.

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This one has probably mentioned before but I stumbled upon it while playing the otherwise great Business as usual mission by bikerdude:

 

- One objective is to place a bottle in the chest of a guard. I found the chest, but using the bottle on it didn't work, I got the red feedback... it took me some time to remember that there is an actual drop key which I then used successfully! Can't placing stuff like this be changed to work with use too?

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- One objective is to place a bottle in the chest of a guard. I found the chest, but using the bottle on it didn't work, I got the red feedback... it took me some time to remember that there is an actual drop key which I then used successfully! Can't placing stuff like this be changed to work with use too?

Mappers can make that happen with a spawnarg and a script. But I take your point, in the situation you describe it'd be good for it to happen always.

 

I'm not sure we can change the default behaviour. There might be maps where manoeuvering something into position is important, rather than just "using" the target location. Plus, the "using" mechanism needs a world object that the player can frob-highlight. Target locations can be invisible, nonsolid and unfrobbable.

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This one has probably mentioned before but I stumbled upon it while playing the otherwise great Business as usual mission by bikerdude:

 

- One objective is to place a bottle in the chest of a guard. I found the chest, but using the bottle on it didn't work, I got the red feedback... it took me some time to remember that there is an actual drop key which I then used successfully! Can't placing stuff like this be changed to work with use too?

 

This is an example of an objective where "something needs to be in a certain location". You're not using the bottle on the chest; you're placing the bottle into the chest, which means letting go of it.

 

Also, achieved objectives can be reversed if you retrieve the object from the location, and using would have no meaning in that sense, since there's no "un-using".

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Also, achieved objectives can be reversed if you retrieve the object from the location, and using would have no meaning in that sense, since there's no "un-using".

You can take stuff out of a chest with Frob and they appear in your inventory again. So Frob and Use could be used complimentary...

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So are you asking that the use key act like the drop key when the location is in front of the player?

 

I.e. the game should recognize that the object you're holding in your hand wants to be in or on the object you're looking at, and pressing the use key will remove the former from your hand and place it in or on the latter?

 

Using one object on another requires that the second object be frobable, so the game can recognize that the player's looking at it. Even though the footlocker is frobable, the location entity that's sitting inside of it and checking whether it touches the bottle is not frobable. Neither the bottle nor the location entity knows anything about the footlocker. Think about this objective: place the book on the desk. How would you have the use key respond to that situation, since the desk is not frobable? Or: drop the amulet down the well. Or: drop the amulet into the moat around the castle.

 

I don't think we want to overload the use key for this behavior. There's already a way to do it that covers all the examples above: use the drop key.

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Think about this objective: place the book on the desk. How would you have the use key respond to that situation, since the desk is not frobable?

Ah, I think I understand the problem now. Still it's strange that using something on the correct location gives the red feedback, so in this case I was always thinking that I had not yet found the right locker! Maybe it would be possible to give some feedback that the item in the inventory can't be used at all? Because keys and lockpicks use the scheme green for correct location and red for wrong location it must be something different. How about using the sound effect that is made when the player tries to drop an item somewhere where it doesn't fit for using an item that can't be used?

Edited by wesp5
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The highlighted object controls the red and green feedback. It asks the question, "Can the current inventory item be used on me?", and gives green feedback if 'yes' and red feedback if 'no'.

 

In your case, the footlocker thought it was being asked whether the bottle could be used to unlock it. The answer was 'no', thus the red feedback.

 

To understand whether an inventory item can be used at all, we'd need to search through the list of frobable entities and find out if the inventory item is 'registered' with any of them. I'm not sure what the feedback would tell you. If the bottle flashes green if it can be used somewhere, and red if it can't be used anywhere, or yellow if it can be used somewhere, but not here, what would you do with that information?

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One question (just to see, if I understand correctly): Say, I make an object frobable and set the spawnarg right (no matter which one, just for my understanding), I could let the locker check if the bottle is useable on it. Then I could (via script) get a "green" response and remove the bottle from the inventory. If I don't open the locker at any point, it would still seem, that the bottle is in the locker (I used it with the locker and it disappeared). The same would be possible for a table or a well: you would have to set the entity to frobable and on correct use could remove the inventory item and create a new func_static on the table or play a splashing sound after a second. Ideally, you can then set the entity to unfrobable so it could no longer be used.

 

Of course, it would be up to the mission author, if they want to do it. It is way easier to set it up with the target location and it is more a "the player has to actually put it there". Another problem I myself see here, would be, that players are used to the "target location way". Thus they would search for a key to open the footlocker instead of getting the idea to try to use a bottle with a footlocker.

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The highlighted object controls the red and green feedback. It asks the question, "Can the current inventory item be used on me?"

Ah, I thought it was the other way around. So is there no inventory flag marking items as loot, usables, readables, weapons or similar? If there is, it could be set to play the "Not here." sound if it was used...

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Another problem I myself see here, would be, that players are used to the "target location way".

That's my problem, because most other FPS or RPGs I play do it like I described. If you need to place something somewhere you normally USE it there and the game recognizes it on it's own. But the solution you described sounds rather complicated to get the same effect into TDM and thus is probably not worth the effort...

Edited by wesp5
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We're discussing two types of behavior:

 

1 - an object needs to be in a location

 

2 - an object can be used on another object

 

For 1, TDM has a location system that allows the mapper to define the location and the object that's supposed to be there. The player satisfies the objective by placing the object at the location ("bottle in box", "amulet down the well", etc.).

 

For 2, TDM has a "use on" system that allows the mapper to define that the object currently shown in inventory can be used on the currently highlighted object. ("grease the wheel", "pick the lock", "unlock the door", etc.).

 

Since the objective in Business is "put the bottle in the box", the mapper used the correct system, which is #1. The bottle leaves the player's hands, falls into the box, and everyone's happy. (As I said above, the box couldn't care less; it's really an invisible cube inside the box that's looking for the presence of the bottle.)

 

We should leave these as they are. If you have an objective that states "find a bottle of grease and use it on the stuck wheel", then you'll know to find the bottle (put it into inventory), highlight the wheel, and press the use key. The wheel can now move, the bottle disappears from inventory (you used up all the grease), and the objective is satisfied.

 

Two different types of objectives.

 

Two different systems provided by TDM.

 

Let's not confuse them by overloading one with the actions provided by the other.

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Let's not confuse them by overloading one with the actions provided by the other.

I agree with that, but you forgot one more type of behaviour:

 

3 - an object can be used on it's own (e.g. readables, weapons)

 

What I was suggesting with the sound idea is to distinguish items of type 1 and type 2 by an audible hint when you use them. Also as I finally got the attention of some active developers :), how about one of my earlier suggestions that should be easy to implement and would be another improvement for gameplay novices:

 

Add some explanation of what the USE key can do to Frobed objects to the controls menu, like INV USE (CANDLE OUT, BODY UP) or similar.

Edited by wesp5
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I didn't forget behavior 3; we were talking about the relationship between two objects, not what one does on its own.

 

Objects of system 1 and system 2 are already distinguishable. In the first, an object wants to be somewhere. In the second, an object wants to be used on (or applied to) another object. If the Business objective had said, "Empty the contents of Benny's favorite drink inside his footlocker so he can drink it like a horse", then the mapper would have used system 2: use the bottle on the footlocker, the bottle disappears (or is somehow marked 'empty'), and the bottom of Benny's footlocker either gets wet or fills up with beer or wine.

 

As for the "let's revisit one of my earlier suggestions", can you point to where this was discussed? Since the use key can be used for a variety of things, and real estate is limited on the menus, a discussion of what the use key can do should prolly be left to separate documentation (i.e. a wiki page).

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We're discussing two types of behavior:

 

1 - an object needs to be in a location

 

2 - an object can be used on another object

 

For 1, TDM has a location system that allows the mapper to define the location and the object that's supposed to be there. The player satisfies the objective by placing the object at the location ("bottle in box", "amulet down the well", etc.).

 

For 2, TDM has a "use on" system that allows the mapper to define that the object currently shown in inventory can be used on the currently highlighted object. ("grease the wheel", "pick the lock", "unlock the door", etc.).

 

Since the objective in Business is "put the bottle in the box", the mapper used the correct system, which is #1. The bottle leaves the player's hands, falls into the box, and everyone's happy. (As I said above, the box couldn't care less; it's really an invisible cube inside the box that's looking for the presence of the bottle.)

 

We should leave these as they are. If you have an objective that states "find a bottle of grease and use it on the stuck wheel", then you'll know to find the bottle (put it into inventory), highlight the wheel, and press the use key. The wheel can now move, the bottle disappears from inventory (you used up all the grease), and the objective is satisfied.

 

Two different types of objectives.

 

Two different systems provided by TDM.

 

Let's not confuse them by overloading one with the actions provided by the other.

 

I completely agree with you. My only question was (and was answered), if it was possible to do what wesp5 suggested via the way I wrote. I also prefer the distinction as it is done right now, but I can also understand, that some people (especially coming from FPSs and RPGs) are used to getting objectives done by using an inventory object on a world object, not having to put it there "by hand".

 

I agree with that, but you forgot one more type of behaviour:

 

3 - an object can be used on it's own (e.g. readables, weapons)

 

What I was suggesting with the sound idea is to distinguish items of type 1 and type 2 by an audible hint when you use them. Also as I finally got the attention of some active developers :), how about one of my earlier suggestions that should be easy to implement and would be another improvement for gameplay novices:

 

Add some explanation of what the USE key can do to Frobed objects to the controls menu, like INV USE (CANDLE OUT, BODY UP) or similar.

 

 

I think it is all explained in the training mission. Although I might be wrong, since it was quite some time ago, that I played it. Yet, I think, I know, what I can do in which situation.

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Objects of system 1 and system 2 are already distinguishable.

 

As for the "let's revisit one of my earlier suggestions", can you point to where this was discussed?

As for point one, right now this is all up to the mission creator's description and how a player understands it. There is no general gameplay related way to distinguish the two kind of items and I was just suggesting one.

 

As for point two, I posted a lot of suggestions earlier on this thread page. But I agree with you, space in the menu is too limited for explanations of that kind. But then the training mission is only a small mission among hundreds of others and I played it a long time ago! Maybe there could be an integrated help page or something explaining the most basic things that are not obvious? I don't like to visit a Wiki or some other online page to figure things out. Also, just out of curiosity, what are the other actions that the use key can do to frobbed objects?

Edited by wesp5
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That's my problem, because most other FPS or RPGs I play do it like I described.

I suspect some of this comes down to Thief/TDM's emphasis on finding hidden stuff. In T1/T2 you get used to the idea that some items can be broken with the sword, and that leads to things like items hidden behind slashable banners. In TDM you get used to physically putting things down, and that leads to hidden objectives like

dropping incriminating evidence on the Watch captain's desk

in Requiem. When you have something like e.g. a painting that frob-highlights and moves aside when frobbed, it's because the mapper had no subtler option than the frob/use systems.

Some things I'm repeatedly thinking about...

 

- louder scream when you're dying

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