Things that could be improved

[Obsttorte]

It's up to everyone to change the appearence of the gui to fit their own needs, and people are also free to upload their designs so other persons who might like them more can choose to use them instead. However, most people aren't complaining about the look of the guy, so I don't see any reasons either to change it in the core mod.

 

 

A GUI scaling project was already started in v1.05 but was not completed.

 

There are existing cvars that can alter the size of GUI elements:

 

* gui_Width (scaling 0..1.0 of screen size)
* gui_Height (scaling 0..1.0)
* gui_CenterX (offset 0..1.0 of screen width)
* gui_CenterY (scaling 0..1.0 of screen height)

 

Tracker 2703.

 

I associated that with the new ticket.

That'S good, I'll take a look at it in the next days.

[wesp5]

It's up to everyone to change the appearence of the gui to fit their own needs, and people are also free to upload their designs so other persons who might like them more can choose to use them instead.

Sadly that's a very common answer to a feature requests here, but most people would not know to do that, even if it might look easy to you. Still, as a scaling is already underway, this will be fine for me!

Edited October 9, 2016 by wesp5

[Springheel]

Sadly that's a very common answer to a feature requests here,

 

 

Yes, it constantly depresses me when other people here don't spend their time implementing my every whim. Almost makes me want to leave and go somewhere they DO do that, like...uh....

[Obsttorte]

Sadly that's a very common answer to a feature requests here, but most people would not know to do that, even if it might look easy to you. Still, as a scaling is already underway, this will be fine for me!

You might oversee that people are spending their free time here to implement things. And no, I am aware of the fact that most people here do not know how to implement certain things. And yes, it is easy to me, but it wasn't all the time. It's not like I was born with this knowledge. I had the will to be able to change certain things and thus spent my time to learn how to do this. It's a bit upsetting to claim that those who know how to do certain things did not invest an enourmous amount of time, energy and nerves to achieve those skills.

 

So sorry, but if you just ask for something that you consider an improvement, you can't just expect that other people who may not see the need for this will spend their free time implementing it. And if you take a look at the bugtracker, you will see that the list of work we have is still very long. So it's not like we are just ignoring everything. But there is only a small amount of people who are actually working on improving the mod and we have to set priorities.

 

So if you want to speeden things up and get things implemented you consider important it might be the right time that you spend your free time learning how to do it and start implementing it, instead of complaining on how other people spend their time and energy.

[wesp5]

 

Yes, it constantly depresses me when other people here don't spend their time implementing my every whim. Almost makes me want to leave and go somewhere they DO do that, like...uh....

Yeah, like I do with my Bloodlines patch ! It's okay if you don't want to add new features, but always using "do it yourself" and "this will change all missions" as excuses is getting on my nerves. Just be honest and say that you only do what you want or that you don't have time or interest for bigger changes...

Edited October 9, 2016 by wesp5

[New Horizon]

Changes that affect all missions is a legitimate reason, not an excuse. Though gameplay changes have still been made when the benefits actually improve missions and don't require fixing them after.

[grayman]

It's okay if you don't want to add new features,

I don't want to add new features.

 

always using "do it yourself"

I have no time, so do it yourself.

 

"this will change all missions"

Changed missions are fun to replay. Let's break everything.

 

excuses

Yes! That's the word I was looking for.

 

is getting on my nerves.

We aims to please.

 

Just be honest

Rats! Exposed for the dishonest and deceitful way we treat players.

 

say that you only do what you want

I only do what I want.

 

or that you don't have time

I don't have the time.

 

or interest

I'm no longer interested.

 

for bigger changes...

Eenie-weenie changes only. They're the bestest and most fun.

[Springheel]

always using "do it yourself" and "this will change all missions" as excuses is getting on my nerves.

 

 

And your constant harping on it is getting on everyone else's nerves. Maybe you should spend less time here and more time in that magical land where other people leap to implement any idea you have....sounds like that would make us both happy.

[Anderson]

That didn't go well.

I think at the end of the day things won't happen over night. No point in this argument.

[wesp5]

That didn't go well.

Yeah, maybe I was a bit hard on you guys . If you don't want to add new features to the TDM this is fine. It's your mod, you do it for free, it's your decision! What really annoys me is this thread which implies that new features could be added although I guess for most of you, like grayman admitted, this not really is an option. Maybe you should just lock this thread or change the title to "technically improved" or something? Because in all the time I follow this board, quite many reasonable suggestions have been made (new weapons, items, weapon and item interactions, environment interaction and more) and almost all have been rejected by the two answers I mentioned. Sorry to be stubborn, but your mod is the most amazing standalone mod that I know about (besides "The Babylon Project") and I'm sometimes disappointed that it basically never get's improved beyond technical details that 90% of players probably won't even notice or care about.

Edited October 10, 2016 by wesp5

[Obsttorte]

The title says "Things that could be improved"

 

 

new weapons, items, weapon and item interactions, environment interaction and more

I'm not sure what you mean by environment interaction, but the other things aren't improvements, they are modifications. If a mapper needs any of those, he can implement them and will get help doing so. There are quiet some missions out there using custom items for example (like my first FM does). And Sotha even created a custom weapon (gas mine), like I did, too (I've created a hook arrow, which leaves climbing spikes at the wall where you shoot it at, so you can climb up there, even at the ceiling, as well as a rough version of a teleportation arrow, and described how I've done this in my videos).

 

Most of the stuff I created was either because someone needed it for his or her FM (like scripting stuff, numberwheel controlled doors, ai that is only visible in the dark etc...) or due to recommondation (like my automap, my hitman style script, different shader stuff etc..). The only thing that I implemented because I wanted it personally is a way for mappers to alter the savegame mechanics, and there were quiet some opposition to this, too.

 

You may even not heard anything about some of the things I've mentioned, and it is generally the case that many features, even if they are added, don't get used that often or at all.

[Obsttorte]

Btw.: A few suggestions that got worked on.

 

http://forums.thedarkmod.com/topic/11058-things-that-could-be-improved/?p=392640

http://forums.thedarkmod.com/topic/11058-things-that-could-be-improved/?p=381831

http://forums.thedarkmod.com/topic/11058-things-that-could-be-improved/?p=387673

http://forums.thedarkmod.com/topic/11058-things-that-could-be-improved/?p=381259

[Destined]

I also think that TDM is a mod based on the old Thief series and as such should not include too many features that deviate from them. At least, not in the core mod. In FMs I find some new features and out-of-the-box thinking very refreshing and enjoy it very much, but not every feature is fitting for every mission. And if every (or even just many) suggested features would be implemented you would end up with something like Assassin's Creed: Revelations, where so many features are present, that it is not enjoyable any more, because it is just to much. I have already heard a lot of discussions about changes, that people would like to see (and I am not too long on the board) and agree with the community here, that people can change the mod to their liking, but cannot expect it to be changed that way for everyone. In my experience everyone gets all the help needed for any project they have, as long as the person is willing to invest time and effort themselves. The one thing you will not find here, is people who will do stuff for you, that they think you could easily do yourself (which in some cases is not as easy as they think, but in these cases you can still ask and describe which problems exactly you have).

[wesp5]

I'm not sure what you mean by environment interaction, but the other things aren't improvements, they are modifications.

First of all I meant more options on how to extinguish lights. My own oil lamp suggestion, the breaking of electrical lights and dousing of torches which were suggested by others. I think the snuffing of candles without taking them actually got worked on, but this doesn't add more options, it only slightly changes one. I think there were suggestions on reverse mantling, pushing or kicking enemies and breaking glass too, but I don't exactly remember the details. As for modifications versus improvements, I don't care how you call it , but the stuff you mentioned you and Sotha created is exactly the kind of things I would like to see more! The problem is as long as they don't end up in the core game, nobody ever will use them much which is a waste of work like new weapons only used in one mission.

 

I'm also aware that there are probably many purists among your team, like Springheel or grayman, who want to stay with the proven formula and not add anything else. As some of you may be aware the same thing happened with Bloodlines which is why I split my patch into a basic and plus version. I might have already suggested this here, but would something like this be an option for future TDM versions? Like a basic one with only the original features and a plus one, with new weapons, items, light extinguishing and similar. Players could then even replay all the missions with the enhanced options version and enjoy them once more! Of course it might be that I underestimate what creating a mod from scratch with a team means and that this is unfeasible because it would be too complicated.

 

As for the improvements you listed, these are exactly what I would call technical improvements. The gameplay does not change whether stealth score is set ot not.

Edited October 10, 2016 by wesp5

[Destined]

I think there were suggestions on reverse mantling, pushing or kicking enemies and breaking glass too, but I don't exactly remember the details.

As far as I remember, there was no objection to reverse mantling. I have no idea, what happened to the idea, but if it was abandoned, I am sure it was due to stuff that was deemed more pressing. The kicking/pushing was not rejected in general, but has the tendency to get too powerful, if not implemented correctly. This, again, means that it needs a lot of playtesting and fine tuning, before it can be added and this requires a lot of time. The breaking glass was also not rejected. I am not sure, how far this is. Here, the only "objection" was that if it is implemented, it should be with a spawnarg that is set to "unbreakable" first, because otherwise older missions would break, where the glass is meant as an actual translucent barrier and should give the player a hint, where to go, but still leading him around. The last bit I can remember was that there were performance problems when the glass shatters into too many small pieces. Would have to look up the exact status, though.

 

The idea with the split mod is absolutely fine. But you have to understand, that people don't want to spend time on something that they have absolutely no benefit from. Why should they work on and test stuff, they actually don't want and consequently won't use in the mod? And this is why the general opinion is: If you want it, do it yourself. I myself have helped you, when you wanted to extinguish lights by frobbing them and I don't use it myself. Still, I was glad to help. It is true that you will have to replace the part of the def-file for every new update of the mod, but noone will stop you from using it, if you prefer you gaslights frob-extinguishable. Just as the people, who don't like it that way, won't use them.

The only thing, I could think of, that helps your vision of a TDM that you can mod to death if you like to, would be a Wiki-Page (and maybe a reference to said Wiki-Page, where Newbies can see it early on), where any such mods are collected. However, this is again something someone would have to spend time on, to collect and describe all mods and how to implement them...

[VanishedOne]

http://bugs.thedarkmod.com/view.php?id=3773 is the tracker entry on pushing AI: it looks as though Springheel's 'What if the player pushes AI into monsterclip?' question still stands.

 

Breakable glass is a func_fracture, i.e. it's placed by the mapper.

 

Breakable electrical lights presumably could be set up by mappers with a func_damagable, or func_fracture given separate models for glass/bulbs and other parts, but I don't know whether AIUSE_BROKEN_ITEM is currently used, since http://wiki.thedarkmod.com/index.php?title=AI_Use_Tags doesn't mention it even in the 'not currently used' list.

 

http://wiki.thedarkmod.com/index.php?title=Fan_Created_Modifications currently has only one entry, which is certainly even more dramatic an alteration than frobbable oil lamps.

Edited October 10, 2016 by VanishedOne

[wesp5]

Still, I was glad to help. It is true that you will have to replace the part of the def-file for every new update of the mod, but noone will stop you from using it, if you prefer you gaslights frob-extinguishable. Just as the people, who don't like it that way, won't use them.

It's not about me, even if it may sound that way. I tried your extinguishable oil lamps once, but honestly I play TDM seldom enough to bother to update this for a new version. For me it's about the whole mod as such, which compared to newer games like Dishonored or even the new Thief feels very old-school and stagnant. Sure, some of this is intentional, but I get the impression that little more than bug-fixing and optimisation is done. Maybe I'm completely wrong, but I noticed this with The Babylon Project, once the mod was at that stage and people had played all available campaigns there was nothing new to look out for and the mod slowly died...

[Obsttorte]

Breakable glass and breakable electric lights are already possible, but it's the mappers choice whether they want to use it.

 

How light sources can be extinguished (for example frobbing a candle out instead of having to pick it up first) is also doable and has already be done, for example by Sotha. This is, as well, mappers choice.

 

Kicking/pushing ai is something I have already started working on, and I can confirm that ai does not get pushed into monsterclip. It's just something that I have to fine-tune and which than would have to undergo some testing before it can become a core feature.

 

Reverse mantling has not been rejected, it's just that it needs to be programmed, which means that you have to identify the code pieces that needs changes and that you need a concept on how to implement it. Unfortunately we don't have that many coders here, and as well not much people who are willing to take the effort in learning it just for TDM, so everything that requires code changes will take time.

 

Regarding "improvements versus modifications": This is not a matter of terminology. Improvements are mainly changes that leave the basic gameplay as it is, but only changes it so that the existing systems work better. Modification means that you are really altering the gameplay. This is, however, not a concern of the mod team, but of the mappers. The core mod only serves as a foundation for mappers and other creatives to create their vision upon, it is not meant to provide all those visions. Hence we are not too motivated to invest time and energy into stuff and put it into the core mod just because someone says that it might get used someday. If someone needs something special, he or she will get help.

 

If you are creating a mission and are in the need of a custom weapon, tool or whatever, I and others will be happy to help you. But I've already invested a whole lot of time implementing stuff that is not getting used although it is part of the core mod.

 

Regarding the "It's easy" phrase: I have spend the last years digging into a lot of stuff completely new to me. And yeah, if you did not yet know how to do certain things, it will be more difficult for you. But I can also compare certain tasks and the effort that is required with them, and I can easely judge which tasks are harder and which are easier. So I would never claim that making changes to the source code, creating new ai or textures is easy. But compared to that other tasks, like altering a gui or working with stim and response is.

 

Easy doesn't meant that a five years old can learn it in one day. It means, that an average adult can learn it in a feasable amount of time independent from his or her educational background. And of course, you have to learn how to do certain things. But you wont if you let other do it for you

 

Regarding a mod split: It's up to everyone to create their own branch of TDM, as it is completely open source and noone owns it. But I fairly doubt that the core members will spend their time carrying about both, as one branch already keeps us very busy.

 

Conclusion: The main reason why many things get rejected is also that we are a very small team. So if you want more changes in a smaller amount of time or have a say in this situations, than start acquiring the skills we require and contribute instead of just suggesting things. This would help both you and the TDM team.

[Anderson]

It's not about me, even if it may sound that way. I tried your extinguishable oil lamps once, but honestly I play TDM seldom enough to bother to update this for a new version. For me it's about the whole mod as such, which compared to newer games like Dishonored or even the new Thief feels very old-school and stagnant. Sure, some of this is intentional, but I get the impression that little more than bug-fixing and optimisation is done. Maybe I'm completely wrong, but I noticed this with The Babylon Project, once the mod was at that stage and people had played all available campaigns there was nothing new to look out for and the mod slowly died...

Have to disagree here. TDM is receiving massive improvements ever since 2.00 for the reason that work is being managed correctly!

I know it sounds cliche but if a team can't coordinate and focus on what needs changes in priority than things won't go much in terms of keeping the public's attention.

 

What TDM possibly doesn't do very well would probably be related to pushing out major updates rather than making each change available as soon as possible as it was tested - available to the public. For example it's a shame that the other 70% of the work for the next update has to be done first, before the long awaited EAX will become ready for the game.

Today it's a lot more important to keep pushing updates regularly as a kind of a token of attention, rather than accepting unconditionally everything just for the sake of competing with AAA games.

 

TLDR - limited resources means prioritisation comes first. There was no intention to offend. It's not yes or no, it's more about being realistic and serious about the project and its perspectives for the future.

 

BTW massive respect for you and the team you have behind yourself for Bloodlines. I suppose, when considering that TDM is a total overhaul, it just doesn't have the same approach as the UP has for Bloodlines - which rather serves to compliment the main experience (possibly that's the reason for the rift in mentality?)

Edited October 10, 2016 by Anderson

[Obsttorte]

 

What TDM possibly doesn't do very well would probably be related to pushing out major updates rather than making each change available as soon as possible as it was tested - available to the public.

The release process of a new version causes quite some work, too. So more frequent updates would mean an overall lower update frequency, which is not feasable either. It's a matter of balance. New releases are not only motivating for the public but also for the people who implement the changes that comes with it, so it's not like we are holding things back intentionally

[wesp5]

Breakable glass and breakable electric lights are already possible, but it's the mappers choice whether they want to use it.

 

How light sources can be extinguished (for example frobbing a candle out instead of having to pick it up first) is also doable and has already be done, for example by Sotha. This is, as well, mappers choice.

The problem with this approach in my opinion is that players will not even be aware of the new gameplay options in special missions when they are not part of the core game. Which maybe is the base of some people judging TDM as a game sandbox rather than a true game, as has been discussed here some time ago.

[wesp5]

Anderson wrote (man, I'm really having problems with the quoting here, how to I split quotes?)

 

>Today it's a lot more important to keep pushing updates regularly as a kind of a token of attention, rather than accepting unconditionally >everything just for the sake of competing with AAA games.

 

That was not what I meant. TDM does not need more or more frequent updates, but it might help to have some bigger changes around sometimes to raise people's interest in the project again.

 

> BTW massive respect for you and the team you have behind yourself for Bloodlines.

 

I think my advantage is that there is no team. Besides some people helping me out with specific things now and then, I do all of the rest myself, from bug fixes to map editing to building the patch installer. So it's easy for me to look into some bug or feature request right on without a bug tracker or similar. Either I can do it or I can't and there is seldom a reason to push something back in time. That's probably the reason why I expect suggestions to be implemented more quickly, because this is the way I do it myself !

Edited October 10, 2016 by wesp5

[Sotha]

I think as follow:

 

The TDM core should be conservative and well planned. "Purists" like grayman and springheel have facilitated it and been instrumental to the success of TDM. If we did not have gate keepers to keep the mod pure of bloat and feature creep, I personally believe TDM would have failed long ago.

 

All arguments of breaking missions or feature creep are rational, and it is better to err on the discretion side, rather than foolishly add something and break something.

 

But that is not the limit. While the core is pure and safe, the mappers can fool around and implement experimental features, pushing the limits of gameplay. The is the TDM "laboratory." The features might be cool for that one mission, but bothersome if omnipresent in the whole experience. Not everything should be added to the core.

 

So instead of asking others to implement a feature, why not learn to do stuff and impress the community with a new FM with some kickass new features. If you really love TDM why not jump aboard and start creating?

[wesp5]

If you really love TDM why not jump aboard and start creating?

Because I'm still too busy patching and improving Bloodlines ! As for the purists locking the base of a mod down, this is important but they too had this with "The Babylon Project" although a long time before I became aware that it was finally finished. It went as far as that one guy prohibited others to improve the mod so the people who were willing actually needed to release a patch for a mod because the mod itself mustn't be modified. I'm glad this isn't the case here though ...

[Obsttorte]

The problem with this approach in my opinion is that players will not even be aware of the new gameplay options in special missions when they are not part of the core game. Which maybe is the base of some people judging TDM as a game sandbox rather than a true game, as has been discussed here some time ago.

Well, it is a game sandbox. It's purpose is to provide a fundament others (mainly mission authors) can build upon. The dark mod isn't one game. It does not restrict you to one setting, one type of gameplay. It's up to the mappers what they use it for. And btw., I can't remember anyone judging on tdm as not a game. Mos tpeople here seem to enjoy it quiet a lot.