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Things that could be improved


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2 hours ago, Anderson said:

Many FM's alredy use the slow match so I don't know. Each author would have to replace it manually. I never thought of the realism side of it. Maybe the PC can light or extinguish the flint every time. Idk.

I haven't looked into this yet, but for my Unofficial Patch I replaced the flash mine with a stun mine by using def and script files. If this is possible for the slow match, automatically all missions that have it would get the flint instead.

Edited by wesp5
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50 minutes ago, Wellingtoncrab said:

@AndersonYou wouldn’t need to replace the slow match really to add a different relighting tool - both could exist in the mod and the author could choose which to make available or if to give the player the ability to relight lights at all.

That would not fix the difficult slow match usage that Anderson was critizising for missions that already exist.

Edited by wesp5
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@wesp5 I guess my perspective over on the core user end is it’s better to look forward on some things - while I am sure there are many older missions where the author would like to replace the slow match if there was a different option it’s probably best not to make assumptions there or worse break something in them - at least when it comes to what is available in the core mod. Given the mods long history - preservation is also important, and this seems to skirt a fine line between improving a mechanic and replacing it. I think many mechanics can improved, but in this case perhaps for example the physics interaction with the slow match is integrated into a puzzle somewhere we are not considering . Or to use a broader example I would agree a new training mission would be awesome, but I don’t think anyone is advocating the original be completely purged from the archive and forgotten as part of the process. I love that mission!

So in my mind as a mapper/core user I think it would be great to have the flint tool added to core so it can be integrated into more missions going forward but not replacing anything - but that would be assuming the assets used are even being offered for integration or there is any interest on the dev side to do so.

When it comes to your patch you obviously can take a different approach as it is more explicit in it aims at altering these existing experiences.

Bit off topic but congrats on the new bloodlines release btw.

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8 hours ago, Wellingtoncrab said:

I think many mechanics can improved, but in this case perhaps for example the physics interaction with the slow match is integrated into a puzzle somewhere we are not considering.

This would of course be a valid argument against replacing the slow match, but on the other hand the problems Anderson and others may have in the hundreds of missions out there will never be fixed by adding a new option for future missions. Of course I am still all for adding as many new options for mappers to the core game as possible! Others would be the magic spectacles of "Written in Stone" and the blowtorch of "Hazard Pay" which need dedicated mapping anyway...

P.S.: Replacing the slow match with the flint was very easy. Kingsal, with your permission I will do this in my patch, ok?

Edited by wesp5
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One benefit a flint would have over the slow match is that you don't have to explain why it still works after you've been for a swim.

But how often do we require something that lights, rather than extinguishes, flames? Aside from a few torch-lighting puzzles, there seems to be little point in making things harder for yourself by illuminating your surroundings. And if you need light to see, that's what the hooded lantern is for.

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On 3/14/2022 at 2:11 PM, wesp5 said:

Isn't that L for lockpicks and K for keys? And I bet this is never mentioned in the game itself as well.

Doesn't have to be mentioned, it's in the options menu under Inventory for Christ's sake! Look.

And you set the keys to whatever the F you want. Doesn't matter what anyone else says, you can use any combination you are comfortable with. Why do we even have options menu when people don't even look?

There are categories that you can cycle also, Maps, Lockpicks, Keys, Readables.

Then there's the dedicated buttons for actual items/.

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This is literally the SECOND thing I do in every game, right after setting up the graphics settings. I go and check for keybinds and change them to a style I'm comfortable with.

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46 minutes ago, AluminumHaste said:

Doesn't have to be mentioned, it's in the options menu under Inventory for Christ's sake! Look.

Yep, found it some time ago but never went around to edit my post. In my opinion this doesn't need to be changed...

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51 minutes ago, AluminumHaste said:

Doesn't have to be mentioned, it's in the options menu under Inventory for Christ's sake! Look.

And you set the keys to whatever the F you want. Doesn't matter what anyone else says, you can use any combination you are comfortable with. Why do we even have options menu when people don't even look?

There are categories that you can cycle also, Maps, Lockpicks, Keys, Readables.

Then there's the dedicated buttons for actual items/.

MnPLui2.png

usilN2q.png

 

This is literally the SECOND thing I do in every game, right after setting up the graphics settings. I go and check for keybinds and change them to a style I'm comfortable with.

Most people I know won't check the settings before playing for their first times. They'll assume it just works or that it might automatically set things up as most modern games do or that the tutorial will show the most important stuff.

"I really perceive that vanity about which most men merely prate — the vanity of the human or temporal life. I live continually in a reverie of the future. I have no faith in human perfectibility. I think that human exertion will have no appreciable effect upon humanity. Man is now only more active — not more happy — nor more wise, than he was 6000 years ago. The result will never vary — and to suppose that it will, is to suppose that the foregone man has lived in vain — that the foregone time is but the rudiment of the future — that the myriads who have perished have not been upon equal footing with ourselves — nor are we with our posterity. I cannot agree to lose sight of man the individual, in man the mass."...

- 2 July 1844 letter to James Russell Lowell from Edgar Allan Poe.

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I've NEVER played a modern game that "just worked" out of the box. They ALWAYS had settings that I didn't like or want (motion blur, AA set to something weird, really low default FOV, weird FPS caps).

So I'm not really sure where you're coming from with that statement.
Like I wrote earlier, nobody should be starting a game without looking at the options menu. That's your own fault for not learning what options are available, then coming into the forums requesting changes that are already present.

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Just reinstalled Horizon Zero Dawn to test my new 6800XT graphics card and realized everything looked wrong.
Had to go into the settings and change a bunch of stuff.

Elden Ring wasn't bad, but there's not many options to play with anyways, I'm used to their layout for controller already from previous games, but the graphics were all cranked to Ultra which is......fine I guess, but I ended up turning a few down because with my 5700XT I had trouble getting at least 60 fps in certain areas.

 

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6 minutes ago, AluminumHaste said:

I've NEVER played a modern game that "just worked" out of the box. They ALWAYS had settings that I didn't like or want (motion blur, AA set to something weird, really low default FOV, weird FPS caps).

So I'm not really sure where you're coming from with that statement.
Like I wrote earlier, nobody should be starting a game without looking at the options menu. That's your own fault for not learning what options are available, then coming into the forums requesting changes that are already present.

Today many games usually default to recommended optimized settings based on PC specifications.

The Nvidia GeForce Experience app is all about that.

image.thumb.png.9f49cf51607e64a575847e14893c1041.png

Edited by Anderson

"I really perceive that vanity about which most men merely prate — the vanity of the human or temporal life. I live continually in a reverie of the future. I have no faith in human perfectibility. I think that human exertion will have no appreciable effect upon humanity. Man is now only more active — not more happy — nor more wise, than he was 6000 years ago. The result will never vary — and to suppose that it will, is to suppose that the foregone man has lived in vain — that the foregone time is but the rudiment of the future — that the myriads who have perished have not been upon equal footing with ourselves — nor are we with our posterity. I cannot agree to lose sight of man the individual, in man the mass."...

- 2 July 1844 letter to James Russell Lowell from Edgar Allan Poe.

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Haven't really had one that I can recall that I loaded up and it just worked with correct settings.
When I was going to play Elden Ring with mouse and keyboard, I had to change several keybinds to something that wasn't dumb.


There's no way a game knows what your preferred keybinds should be, at the very least you should be checking things out.
And I don't think I've played a new game in recent memory where the refresh rate was set properly, and it's defaulted to 60fps Vsync on.

 

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7 minutes ago, AluminumHaste said:

Haven't really had one that I can recall that I loaded up and it just worked with correct settings.
When I was going to play Elden Ring with mouse and keyboard, I had to change several keybinds to something that wasn't dumb.


There's no way a game knows what your preferred keybinds should be, at the very least you should be checking things out.
And I don't think I've played a new game in recent memory where the refresh rate was set properly, and it's defaulted to 60fps Vsync on.

 

Well, I liked that GeForce Experience usually has a realistic prognosis based on the diagnosis of PC specs. So it usually looks at the worst case scenario and sets up graphics lower accordingly. I never found it to optimize graphics in a way that makes FPS stall. Especially important in multiplayer games.

Whereas indeed, often in-game recommended optimization is a hit & miss. I think Source games used to be not so good at it. Didn't play them recently to see if they changed something.

Edited by Anderson

"I really perceive that vanity about which most men merely prate — the vanity of the human or temporal life. I live continually in a reverie of the future. I have no faith in human perfectibility. I think that human exertion will have no appreciable effect upon humanity. Man is now only more active — not more happy — nor more wise, than he was 6000 years ago. The result will never vary — and to suppose that it will, is to suppose that the foregone man has lived in vain — that the foregone time is but the rudiment of the future — that the myriads who have perished have not been upon equal footing with ourselves — nor are we with our posterity. I cannot agree to lose sight of man the individual, in man the mass."...

- 2 July 1844 letter to James Russell Lowell from Edgar Allan Poe.

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Has anyone considered altering guard behaviour if they find multiple bodies?  Particularly when playing Full Moon Fever I have a tendency to take out the guards one by one and stash them in a pile behind the greenhouse.

When a guard sees a body they usually seem to examine the body and then go on alert and prowl.  That's fine for one, maybe two unconscious/dead folk - but when you come across, like six of them, or ten...  you're not dealing with an intruder anymore, you've got a dangerous maniac on your hands.

Hence, I have been wondering if it would be worth making the guards, on discovering 3 bodies or more at once, scream or yell a custom retort ("By the Builder!",  "What the hell?!", "Oh my gods!") and then immediately run for reinforcements.

I'm not sure how much of the I-found-a-body code is scripted and how much is internal to the engine so it might be harder to pull off than I'd expect, e.g. if a function is returning a single value for a discovered body and now needs to return a list.

Still, I figured it's worth throwing out there.

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1 hour ago, tapewolf said:

Has anyone considered altering guard behaviour if they find multiple bodies?  Particularly when playing Full Moon Fever I have a tendency to take out the guards one by one and stash them in a pile behind the greenhouse.

When a guard sees a body they usually seem to examine the body and then go on alert and prowl.  That's fine for one, maybe two unconscious/dead folk - but when you come across, like six of them, or ten...  you're not dealing with an intruder anymore, you've got a dangerous maniac on your hands.

Hence, I have been wondering if it would be worth making the guards, on discovering 3 bodies or more at once, scream or yell a custom retort ("By the Builder!",  "What the hell?!", "Oh my gods!") and then immediately run for reinforcements.

I'm not sure how much of the I-found-a-body code is scripted and how much is internal to the engine so it might be harder to pull off than I'd expect, e.g. if a function is returning a single value for a discovered body and now needs to return a list.

Still, I figured it's worth throwing out there.

I'm not sure I understand your question.

I think it's enough to make them constantly being alert in certain situations, make the path patrol more unpredictable.  Idk if you mean that AI should have 2 or 3 times longer search time. Because they should probably resume back to normal patrol anyway. Their weapons will simply always be drawn and they'll be ready for combat anyway.

I think it's a gameplay thing because if they'll never return to normal patrol than many users will have a problem with playing. Moreover in many maps you have certain safe locations where the AI simply won't ever find you. You mean that AI should search the entire map? Even then there are ceilings to hide at with accessible with rope arrows and so on. Also since AI can't use ladder this is another limitation of AI searches. So basically making AI paranoid after over 9999 bodies won't really help gameplay unless you want to enable some hardcore difficulty. But IMHO the time it takes to stealth through aggressive AI is already a good difficulty bonus in an of itself with other difficulty settings maxed out.

AI already coordinates their searches between themselves. Much smarter than Thief AI. AFAIK they run for reinforcements when they're sure that they can't win, when they are wounded and near death. Also unarmed AI always runs for their lives and for backup. I'm not sure there is much point in immediately running for backup since the Thief will be gone by the time backup arrives. So it's logical that they go straight for the action. Idk if AI screaming, other than death screams and body falling sound is heard by other AI as a call for reinforcements or if they need to approach each other in direct dialogue to go call for reinforcement.

Many mappers already have settings in their maps with standard patrol routes to be not the same on every patrol AFAIK even with the AI is not alert.

I don't know I answer your suggestion.

Edited by Anderson

"I really perceive that vanity about which most men merely prate — the vanity of the human or temporal life. I live continually in a reverie of the future. I have no faith in human perfectibility. I think that human exertion will have no appreciable effect upon humanity. Man is now only more active — not more happy — nor more wise, than he was 6000 years ago. The result will never vary — and to suppose that it will, is to suppose that the foregone man has lived in vain — that the foregone time is but the rudiment of the future — that the myriads who have perished have not been upon equal footing with ourselves — nor are we with our posterity. I cannot agree to lose sight of man the individual, in man the mass."...

- 2 July 1844 letter to James Russell Lowell from Edgar Allan Poe.

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On the last missions a new tool appeared, these special glasses. They are a very good tool, but perhaps it would be even better to be able to select them like the other tools, with a quick key, sometimes it is somewhat cumbersome to have to select them by entering the inventory menu or searching for them with the mouse wheel.

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If a guard finds an unarmed scullery wench knocked out in a corner he might start searching around for an intruder.

If he finds the corpses of five slain watchmen in an alley it would make sense for him to panic, run to a flee point, and summon every other guard he can find.

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                                      Down and Out on Newford Road              the Factory Heist

                                                                                                  A House Call

                              

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7 minutes ago, thebigh said:

If a guard finds an unarmed scullery wench knocked out in a corner he might start searching around for an intruder.

If he finds the corpses of five slain watchmen in an alley it would make sense for him to panic, run to a flee point, and summon every other guard he can find.

This is exactly what I mean.  There is clearly some mechanism for them to flee and get reinforcements, I figure that discovering multiple simultaneous bodies (say 3 or more) ought to trigger that.

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14 hours ago, thebigh said:

If a guard finds an unarmed scullery wench knocked out in a corner he might start searching around for an intruder.

If he finds the corpses of five slain watchmen in an alley it would make sense for him to panic, run to a flee point, and summon every other guard he can find.

Idk, I guess guards simply follow the horror story cliche when they keep pushing into the darkness even though everyone died before and there's horrible sounds coming.

But yeah, maybe in a way guards should react more emotionally than non-human AI. But it doesn't bother me much bc TDM is not GTA and you're not expected to nuke the map with a BFG from all living matter like in Quake 3. Although I sometimes do. But that's more because I want to see more content faster.

Edited by Anderson

"I really perceive that vanity about which most men merely prate — the vanity of the human or temporal life. I live continually in a reverie of the future. I have no faith in human perfectibility. I think that human exertion will have no appreciable effect upon humanity. Man is now only more active — not more happy — nor more wise, than he was 6000 years ago. The result will never vary — and to suppose that it will, is to suppose that the foregone man has lived in vain — that the foregone time is but the rudiment of the future — that the myriads who have perished have not been upon equal footing with ourselves — nor are we with our posterity. I cannot agree to lose sight of man the individual, in man the mass."...

- 2 July 1844 letter to James Russell Lowell from Edgar Allan Poe.

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On 3/21/2022 at 7:34 PM, tapewolf said:

When a guard sees a body they usually seem to examine the body and then go on alert and prowl.  That's fine for one, maybe two unconscious/dead folk - but when you come across, like six of them, or ten...  you're not dealing with an intruder anymore, you've got a dangerous maniac on your hands.

Except if there was a party at hand. So if you don't kill the bodies, put some empty bottles around and a note of a guards-party then you should (realistically) fool guards..

Edited by datiswous
I'm joking of course
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If opening things that come toward you: Doors, drawers, etc. it would be nice if the player gets moved back automatically a certain distance so that the player doesn't block the object moving out (this especially happens after unlocking with lockpick). I guess you can't universally apply this because then a lot of missions have to be checked for not having stuff behind the player when moved back.

Alternativly this can be partly fixed by increasing the minimum frob distance even for using lockpicks.

Edited by datiswous
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I would guess that physically moving the player backwards could produce weird geometry errors that are hard to diagnose or predict, and would be a real PITA for the programmers to deal with.

Drawers and such bumping into me when they open doesn't bother me much. I've learned where to stand, at an angle to them, so they open properly. The one that bugs me is lockpicking a door and it inevitably swing out towards you. There's not much really to do about that except for mappers being aware of which way their doors rotate.

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My missions:           Stand-alone                                                      Duncan Lynch series                              

                                      Down and Out on Newford Road              the Factory Heist

                                                                                                  A House Call

                              

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