Sotha's mapping thread

[Fidcal]

Also remember there is some slight risk when you replace menu guis with your own custom ones in a developing system. It's fine in Thief which was finished and fixed but in TDM the briefing menu might be called differently at some future time so there could be conflict. I'm not saying don't do it but just so you know you might need to re-issue your FM at a later date if that happened.

 

Ideally imo we want a hybrid of this gui that can work either way depending on player settings. I could then put it in some future update as the official gui. Then if there is any further change in TDM it would work with this and be backward compatible.

[Sotha]

Also remember there is some slight risk when you replace menu guis with your own custom ones in a developing system. It's fine in Thief which was finished and fixed but in TDM the briefing menu might be called differently at some future time so there could be conflict. I'm not saying don't do it but just so you know you might need to re-issue your FM at a later date if that happened.

 

Oh, I thought the idea was not to do TDM changes which break the existing FM's. I'd like to hear the official team opinion of breaking the main menu.

 

This current mainmenu_briefing.gui of mine is simply a modified version of the original. It gets called just like the original did. The difference is only that instead of a steady flowing animation, this one presents buttons which control the animation. My briefing gets started and terminated exactly the same way the original briefing did.

 

So I think doing alterations to the mainmenu, which breaks my briefing certainly breaks all the existing ORIGINAL briefings too! My briefing should be compatible to changes, which the original briefing is also compatible with.

 

Ideally imo we want a hybrid of this gui that can work either way depending on player settings. I could then put it in some future update as the official gui. Then if there is any further change in TDM it would work with this and be backward compatible.

 

Ideally imo we want a stable menu system, which the mappers can tailor to their own needs without fear of breaking changes as long as the structure of the custom menu is designed to work with the original. Giving this liberty allows creation of diverse spectrum of custom mainmenu briefings as long as the briefing creators see the trouble to see how the original mainmenu_briefing.gui works.

 

Your suggestion would confine future briefings to be according to a certain template, without not so much liberty in the design.

[rich_is_bored]

Unless there some plan to gut and replace the gui system I fail to see the problem here. Any conflict that arises from the filename being different is limited to this FM alone and it can be quickly remedied by renaming the gui to match.

[Fidcal]

Yes, you're probably right about custom briefing guis because we already have some including myself. I was just thinking of earlier instances of custom menu guis problems. One was the trainer where one of the menus had an extra option to show the help messages or not. Later the official menu was changed to add new options. So that meant the trainer would no longer work with those. The trainer was re-issued for various fixes and I believe that was one of them. Another example, and this was before TDM was launched, I created a text briefing menu gui for the start map, not realizing (or forgetting) that we only need a separate xdata file for that. Later, a video option was added (this is the brief TDM splash video you see at the start of every FM which incidentally can be used as a true video briefing) and that broke my briefing menu and anyone else's that was using it. I think enough custom briefing guis are out there now so any official change would have to accomodate them.

 

My idea was a hybrid of your idea which would work either way depending on player setting. But that would require a variable to be passed by the code I think so that would not work with existing ones. I don't know if it would break any.

 

So the solution might be to accept what we have and just have separate custom guis. Some mappers would use your method and some the existing one, and some invent totally new presentations. Maybe someone can figure out a way to get them all to work together though so the player has a choice.

[Sotha]

Maybe someone can figure out a way to get them all to work together though so the player has a choice.

 

The briefing is a sort of 'front cover' for a FM, like a front cover of a book. I'm thinking it is the mappers choice to decide what kind of briefing suits the FM (s)he has created with many hours of sweat.

 

Nothing prevents people of creating their very own briefing movies, so I think it might be an impossible task to mash all possibilities under some kind of options.

 

And I suspect mappers are not keen to build several briefing scenes for one mission. Plus a plethora of briefing alternatives/options would only confuse the players.

 

Let the mapper decide, as long as they make sure the briefing is player friendly.

With delayed animation the mapper needs to be extra-special sure that all users have time to read the text on-screen while not frustrating other users with too long delays.

With next/prev-button briefing this problem is essentially annihilated. It might also be that mappers who have used the plain-text briefing might get interested in animated briefings with this new gui, thus providing the community with graphically more impressive experience. Well, that is if mappers are not frightened with possible briefing breakage upon TDM update..

[Tels]

I think it would be supereasy to take the new GUI (which is cool esp for non-native players) and add the buttons only if a certain cvar is set. We can than simply add an option to the menu that lets players toggle it, so the player can decide: Do I always want the next/prev buttons, or do I want the flow?

 

best of both worlds. If you want that CVAR, just add a tracker entry.

[Springheel]

Before we start turning the bug-tracker into a wish list, it might be nice to decide whether that suggestion is even feasible. I haven't seen Sotha's menu, but I highly doubt it's as simple as toggling off the buttons.

[Tels]

Before we start turning the bug-tracker into a wish list, it might be nice to decide whether that suggestion is even feasible. I haven't seen Sotha's menu, but I highly doubt it's as simple as toggling off the buttons.

 

The GUI can hide any element super-easy (just fade it to full transparent). Make that a named event (HideButtons). Also add an event "NextSlide" (it already exists I think, anyway)

 

Then: The C++ code can issue any "named" GUI event any time, so it would be super-easy to have it hide the buttons, then "press" the buttons with fixed amounts of time. Actually, you would only need one GUI event that does all this, and trigger it once after loading the briefing GUI. Adding a sysvar and a call that does this is something I finish before breakfast.

 

(That's not kidding, such small tasks are what I usually do after getting up, while drinking my morning coffee and before driving to work, where I have my breakfast.

 

I just ask that these things are tracked, so that I can spent my 30 minutes, coding, not tracking and discovering-how-it-should-work things

[Springheel]

My point wasn't that hiding the buttons is hard. It's that just hiding the buttons won't suddenly make Sotha's briefing flow like the other custom briefings do.

 

Now, I could be wrong, and Sotha might have found some brilliant method to accomplish both types of briefing at once, but knowing how the original briefings work, I doubt it.

[Tels]

My point wasn't that hiding the buttons is hard. It's that just hiding the buttons won't suddenly make Sotha's briefing flow like the other custom briefings do.

 

Now, I could be wrong, and Sotha might have found some brilliant method to accomplish both types of briefing at once, but knowing how the original briefings work, I doubt it.

 

Do you mean by "flow" that they somehow "animate" the images, or that they at least switch to the next page? The former might indeed be very tricky, the latter should be easy.

 

However, as people here seem to be split about briefings that "auto-switch" pages, it would be good if we could have briefings that do both, even if they are not as fancy as the current ones. As any non-native speaker will tell you, a not-so-fancy-but-readable-in-my-own-time briefing will always beat one that you can only read half the text on and understand only half of it.

 

Mappers can still use the current briefings if they think their artsy control is more important than the player actually knowing whats going on

[Fidcal]

I agree with Springheel. This method sandwiches everything into pages. Removing the page pauses the content is still defined as pages but just won't stop. Whereas existing briefings are not limited by any one page ending.

 

So for example, this demo has one text displayed and one image that scrolls or fades in per page. Existing briefings can have several images overlapping (one fading out as another scrolls in while yet another is fading off to the right.) It can also have more than one text (one main paragraph then a few seconds later a couple more sentences added at the bottom.) I guess the same with sounds and music.

[Fidcal]

An alternate method comes to mind. Is it possible to create some means of pausing the flow of a gui action when a button or key is pressed - I mean at any point like you might press pause on a video? If so, and that could be included in all gui briefings, then any kind of briefing gui might be made and if it is is too fast for some player they need only press say P to pause it at any moment.

 

At the moment Esc or LMB overrides everything and exits to the main menus no matter at what stage the briefing has reached. Can the same method be used with another key or say RMB but instead of exiting it just goes into a holding code loop?

[Ishtvan]

Question:

Is there a texture which the player sees through and the AI doesen't? Putting this kind of texture in between the cell-door bars would negate my problem: guards do not see the prisoners in the cells and if player sets the prisoners free, the guards will attack.

 

I tried nodrawsolid, but AI sees through that.

 

Thanks in advance for any help!

 

I'm very late to the party here (June), but there is something that does this. Not a surface, but a clipmodel contents flag, CONTENTS_OPAQUE. This has to be set on a solid object with a clipmodel, like a door. The way to set these is not very userfriendly, you have to set "clipmodel_contents" to an integer that is the result of summing all the binary CONTENTS_* flags you want. The values of the CONTENTS flags to add up are listed in tdm_defs.script. Even then, on certain entities the clipmodel contents can get reset from what you set originally, so no guarantees.

[Sotha]

I agree with Springheel. This method sandwiches everything into pages. Removing the page pauses the content is still defined as pages but just won't stop. Whereas existing briefings are not limited by any one page ending.

 

So for example, this demo has one text displayed and one image that scrolls or fades in per page. Existing briefings can have several images overlapping (one fading out as another scrolls in while yet another is fading off to the right.) It can also have more than one text (one main paragraph then a few seconds later a couple more sentences added at the bottom.) I guess the same with sounds and music.

 

Well, the original idea of this briefing was to create an animated briefing to provide the same functionality that the non-graphical briefing offers. Basically show the text with pages and show a floating picture. I hated the original briefings because of the awkward delay-settings. Getting the delays right was time consuming and I've noticed in a few FM's that the text disappears before I've had time to read it. Not good.

 

This briefing is intended to let people using the non-graphical briefing to be able to create easily simple animated briefings with pages.

 

I main idea was not to have it flow. The main idea is to have it in pages.

 

This briefing can show multiple images per page if the user simply adds them in the .gui file. Simply further editing of the .gui-file can accomplish probably everything people are thinking (delayed-flow-with buttons, pause button, images float after pressing next page...) about here.

 

This briefing is exactly what I wanted and this is what I'm going to used in the future in my FM's. Others are also welcome to use it if they like it.

 

Do you mean by "flow" that they somehow "animate" the images, or that they at least switch to the next page? The former might indeed be very tricky, the latter should be easy.

 

The briefing works like this:

• Start briefing, show text1, show nextbutton1, put image1 in motion
• If nextbutton1 is pressed, hide text1, nextbutton1, image1. Show text2, nextbutton2, previousbutton1. Put image2 in motion.
• If prevbutton1 is pressed, hide text2, nextbutton2, previousbutton1. Show text1, nextbutton1. Put image1 in motion.

To have this flow as a menu option you would need a routine which secretly 'presses'/targets the current visible nextbutton automatically after a certain delay the user sets in the menu. The next/previous-buttons would still be visible so the user can browser forward as needed. But if the delay in the menu is fixed, like wait 30s then all the screens would take that long without taking into account the amount of text on-screen. A clumsy system. Oh, and it would work only for this .gui file.

 

What if mapper further edits a new kind of gui to suit his/her needs better? What if the mapper wants to have a genuine briefing *movie* that flows without pause functionality? These might be really cool with spoken narrative. Add a fixed pause there and it gets really clumsy.

[7upMan]

To be honest, when watching the cinematic text-briefings that some FMs use, I always feel a little rushed. I'm not a native speaker, so I often find myself wishing there was a pause button of sorts. That's why I think that Sotha's idea is simply brilliant. I can take all the time I need ans read at my own pace.

 

In the end, giving the mapper the choice between the cinematic "flowing" briefing and the "paged" briefing is the way to go. Just my two cents.

 

 

[Tels]

To be honest, when watching the cinematic text-briefings that some FMs use, I always feel a little rushed. I'm not a native speaker, so I often find myself wishing there was a pause button of sorts. That's why I think that Sotha's idea is simply brilliant. I can take all the time I need ans read at my own pace.

 

In the end, giving the mapper the choice between the cinematic "flowing" briefing and the "paged" briefing is the way to go. Just my two cents.

 

Hm, but the idea of a "pause" button is also a nice idea. If that could be added to the GUI, then players could just pause it. I think "SPACE" would work as it is used in movie players, too.

[LEGION]

Thanks, Sotha!! I love it! And I´m glad that it seems that I wasn´t the only one having problems reading the old briefings in time...

 

I think it would be supereasy to take the new GUI (which is cool esp for non-native players) and add the buttons only if a certain cvar is set. We can than simply add an option to the menu that lets players toggle it, so the player can decide: Do I always want the next/prev buttons, or do I want the flow?

 

best of both worlds. If you want that CVAR, just add a tracker entry.

Did you looked in the meantime at both guis? Is it still that easy? Of course this would please all of us. OTOH, a simple PAUSE-function would be the most easy/pleasing thing.

 

I agree with Springheel. This method sandwiches everything into pages. Removing the page pauses the content is still defined as pages but just won't stop. Whereas existing briefings are not limited by any one page ending.

 

So for example, this demo has one text displayed and one image that scrolls or fades in per page. Existing briefings can have several images overlapping (one fading out as another scrolls in while yet another is fading off to the right.) It can also have more than one text (one main paragraph then a few seconds later a couple more sentences added at the bottom.) I guess the same with sounds and music.

This stuff suites best for narrated briefings, but when you have to read you won´t notice most of the images or even sounds, though I would love to have sound-effects in it, but they best fit when you read special words/sentences and again, better fits with narrated stuff. But hell, who has a Narrator at hand, I know.

 

But if it is the same code, then the 'floating' text and such could be added to Sotha´s gui between the pages, couldn´t it?

 

Hm, but the idea of a "pause" button is also a nice idea. If that could be added to the GUI, then players could just pause it. I think "SPACE" would work as it is used in movie players, too.

That would be great to have, is that sth you can do before breakfast too?

[Tels]

That would be great to have, is that sth you can do before breakfast too?

 

This week the school holidays ended, so many more people come to work (suprising isnt it?) so I have to compete for a spot for my car, so I need to go out at a very early hour and this kills my time before breakfast

[LEGION]

Hmm, it´s time to finish your Teleport-technology you were surely working on...

 

Oh, I just converted the German briefing for Crown of Penitence into Sotha´s GUI and it´s easy to have the Pictures floating into the next or previous page. I´m sure one can add the other stuff too...

Though I have to say, the order of the Next/Prev-stages confused me a little...

But I just need to get used to them, was my first time I messed around with briefing anyway. So, THANKS AGAIN Sotha, I really love it. I´ll add this to every FM I have in the next days/weeks...

 

But next I´ll try to add EAX into the map and that leads me to another question I asked Sotha: Will there be EAX-support in your map?

Edited October 27, 2010 by LEGION

[Sotha]

Hmm, it´s time to finish your Teleport-technology you were surely working on...

 

Oh, I just converted the German briefing for Crown of Penitence into Sotha´s GUI and it´s easy to have the Pictures floating into the next or previous page. I´m sure one can add the other stuff too...

Though I have to say, the order of the Next/Prev-stages confused me a little...

But I just need to get used to them, was my first time I messed around with briefing anyway. So, THANKS AGAIN Sotha, I really love it. I´ll add this to every FM I have in the next days/weeks...

 

But next I´ll try to add EAX into the map and that leads me to another question I asked Sotha: Will there be EAX-support in your map?

 

I'm glad you like it! Really nice to see others enjoying the fruits of my work. I didn't do it only for myself, then..

 

The stages are in numerical order. The buttons you can think like this:

nextbuttonx x is the stage the button click leaves.

Prevbuttony y is the stage the button press enters.

 

This is because I named the buttons simply in the order they appear: nextbutton1 goes to stage 2, prevbutton1 goes to stage 1.

 

EAX question: no, if it requires special actions from my part... i dont know anything about this.

[LEGION]

Oh yes, I had the impression of 'Next/Next/Prev/Prev' but I was wrong as I see now, sorry. The most confusion part must´ve been that BriefingPicture2 I had to use for Text3 and some pictures had to be shown for two text-stages. Of course not your fault!

 

Try out Dave´s EAXdemo and open the map, from what I see it´s pretty easy. Just location_info for visportaled/doored rooms and separators in the doorways.

And the efx-file. Only bottom-line is that every room needs it´s own definition, because you can use a location-name only once. You can use Dave´s settings as presets.

 

But, hell, I haven´t tried it yet myself, but tomorrow I´ll play around with it...

 

If you don´t have the Hardware for EAX4.0 I can test it for you!

Edited October 28, 2010 by LEGION

[LEGION]

And Sotha, did you had a look?

 

I successfully implemented EAX into German Crown of Penitence and it really was as easy as I said.

 

We only would need more presets, but the existing ones are very good as basic.

[Sotha]

And Sotha, did you had a look?

 

I successfully implemented EAX into German Crown of Penitence and it really was as easy as I said.

 

We only would need more presets, but the existing ones are very good as basic.

 

Had a look at eax? Nope, I've not been at home lately. At present I'm happy with current soundscape with no need to improve that. I'll check later to see if I get interested. I'm not sure if I'm willing to see trouble if it won't work for all players, though...

[LEGION]

Well, it seems the Linux-players can´t benefit from it. (now)

 

But it´s really no trouble. As I said, one location_info-entity with individual 'name' that you copy over a preset into your own efx-file and location_separators into visportals. That´s it.

You don´t even need to dmap again, just 'runaas'.

 

Also you don´t have to play around with the values, there are enough Presets in the EAXdemo from Dave. In his thread he also posted an Underwater-preset.

 

Well, as you most likely can see, I love it as much as your briefing-gui. If you don´t have time I could add it to your map myself, though I´d rather not spoil your surely legendary mission for me...

 

Again about your briefing-gui:

The confusing part for me was that 'Next' came before 'Prev'. I changed that order for my own and know I have a better feeling for it. Before I lost track of what should be visible again when I go back so I found myself scrolling through the gui and losing track at what position I was originally...

[Sotha]

Worked again on my map after a long pause. It was very difficult to get going because I didn't remember at which stage I was in.

 

Not going to leave this map unattended anymore.

 

I'm working at present to get it to betatesting and released. Then it's off my hands.