Sotha's mapping thread

[Sotha]

Did you just use Hero Quest props to draw a parallel to Fallout???

Heh.. I'm afraid so. But look at the screenies and trust your instincts. You know it is true!

 

Take that corridor shot for example (which I really like): if you can get one of those vaulted sections (a square in plan view), you can copy it X times in one direction, then insert one with the window, continue copying the deafult one, then another with a ready made door to one side, and the only thing you would need to draw by hand would be the ends of it. It would save you all the trouble of creating the vaults, texturing them and aligning the whole thing, cutting the wall to pieces and fitting a window there, or a working door - just place the prefabs, adjust it to your liking, and then resuse. You are left with a solid geometry that only needs detailing. I think to have architectural prefabs like that (and there are some already available) would be very profitable indeed.

 

Exactly, but with one difference. You don't draw anything by hand, instead you create a dead-end module and terminate the corridor with it. OR a module with a bogus closed portcullis. Or with a window module. Or any kind of interesting-looking module you happen to have around from previous build efforts.

 

The fundamental paradigm is that every single piece of geometry (walls, rooms, corridors, vaultings) are made into separately and easily reuseable form. You only build modules in a separate area. When a module is fully completed, you add it into the actual mission geometry.

 

@Radiant, the modules are rather easy to align as long as the mapper uses grid of 8 units. Since the modules consume space based on the tile size, having one or two modules around makes accurate module placement even more easy. Also the tiling makes sure that if you do a full circle with the corridors, the end will always match with the beginning.

[Springheel]

A very nice idea with a lot of potential benefits. Also a very cool thing for mappers to work on when they don't have the time or energy to build a complete mission. A series of city-street modules would be extremely useful.

[GameDevGoro]

Oh neat!

 

This is the type of stuff games use when they don't use CSG (or similar) like Dark Radiant does. So yeah, It's a damn fine idea.

All of the Elder Scrolls games (don't know about Arena, but Daggerfall, Morrowind, Oblivion and Skyrim) have dungeons and interiors built in such a way.

[Tels]

Since rumors are treason, I'll be give an overview about my little project I call The Ultimate Modularization.

 

Recently I played Fallout 3 and in a sudden realization it struct me that many of the dungeons are just models mashed-up, like this:

 

Did that idea strike thee after or before I told you about my framework: http://bloodgate.com/swift/ ?

 

I find it kinde strange that you present that here as your own complete idea, without even mentioning the discussions we had, esp. about how the modules should be structured etc.

[Sotha]

Did that idea strike thee after or before I told you about my framework: http://bloodgate.com/swift/ ?

 

I find it kinde strange that you present that here as your own complete idea, without even mentioning the discussions we had, esp. about how the modules should be structured etc.

 

Not sure anymore. I think I played Fallout the day before you showed your stuff. It is clear your comments were most helpful and important in module design and I hereby declare to the world that indeed TELS GAVE IMPORTANT POINTERS AND ADVICE IN THIS MATTER. (As did other team members in the same thread, by the way.) The reason why I did not mention you at all was because I wanted to make sure you will not be upset about me accidentally leaking your stuff about the automatic module combining software. You said 'do not share yet' in your thread.

 

My apologies if you got upset anyways. Usually you do the wrong thing by trying to do the right thing, such is the way of the human nature. I can only assure you that stealing credit was not my intention, but more to honour your wish about silence.

[Melan]

A very nice idea with a lot of potential benefits. Also a very cool thing for mappers to work on when they don't have the time or energy to build a complete mission.

We have already had discussions about prefab libraries, and there have even been two (failed? finished?) attempts to set them up as individual sites.

 

Useful stuff; I know I can spend the better part of an evening procrastinating about making a better-looking window.

[Tels]

@Sotha: Thanx, yes, that was good thinking of your part and and I should have made it more clear that I was already thinking you thought probably you should not leak it.

 

Just found it kinda strange that your entire post and SH replies make it look like nothing has happened befores so people who only read the public forums might get the wrong impressions. And I hold no grudge, good ideas are a dime a dozend and I am certainly not the first one to think of anythitng, ever. So please no hard feelings

[Sotha]

@Sotha: Thanx, yes, that was good thinking of your part and and I should have made it more clear that I was already thinking you thought probably you should not leak it.

 

Just found it kinda strange that your entire post and SH replies make it look like nothing has happened befores so people who only read the public forums might get the wrong impressions. And I hold no grudge, good ideas are a dime a dozend and I am certainly not the first one to think of anythitng, ever. So please no hard feelings

 

Maybe even exposing the idea to the community will bring even and refined better ideas, who knows.

 

I wasn't thinking it is important who gets the credit for what idea as I reported what I'm doing at present. The realized work for TDMs benefit overall is more important. There is no I in a team, and it says "Team Member" on you, me and SH, right?

 

Anyways, you will most likely benefit from these modules as well so you should be happy I'm working on them. Everyone wins. Time for beer, hugs, maybe some kumbayah. Hey you two! No kissing at the backseats!

[Tels]

Maybe even exposing the idea to the community will bring even and refined better ideas, who knows.

 

Yes, but I learned painfully in the past that presenting unripe ideas has also a lot of pitfalls

 

In any event, my focus is more on the assembling of modules, than on the modules itself. So it's not like we are competing here

[rich_is_bored]

Some of you may think this is very cool...

 

http://procworld.blogspot.com/2012/02/real-men-dont-draw-buildings.html

[demagogue]

That's a pretty inspiring video!

 

I've been following that blog for a little while. I LOVE the idea of a Minecraft-like procedurally-generated world, but where it's an open world on par with something like Skyrim, and you could just walk and let it generate forever, with terrain and models and villages and NPCs. I mean just pause to think about how epic that would be.

 

And if it were moddable like Minecraft so people could put in their own tweaks and make any kind of FPS or RPG or adventure game in that world (like people are doing in Minecraft)... and maybe if the world could be directly modifiable (like digging holes, gathering materials, & building buildings; we'd have to think about how that would work though) ... But if a game anywhere remotely like that came out of this, that would IMO be close to the perfect game of the century, well decade anyway.

 

Heh, sorry... I shouldn't derail the thread. But every time I see a new development from that blog I get all giddy about it all over again.

 

Edit: And holy crap this quote!

Well now I'm totally distracted by this blog again.

• Miguel CeperoSeptember 13, 2012 10:13 AM
  I have two versions of the Voxel Farm engine, one if for static worlds like Skyrim's, the other allows dynamic modifications like Minecraft. They both use polyongs, they do not create any hard problems when it comes to carving or adding stuff.
  
• KamicaSeptember 13, 2012 4:18 PM
  About the editable one, I take it it will be possible to dig under ground, creating overhang?
  
• Miguel CeperoSeptember 13, 2012 4:31 PM
  Yes, you can dig/carve anything you see. But I am keeping this branch of the tech under a lid for now. I will make announcements later. This is all I will say.
  

[Sotha]

I don't mind thread derailing if the topic is interesting enough...

 

Off-topic:

Procedurally generated world sounds very interesting at first, but they would need also a really interesting procedurally generated AI, economics, and that sort of stuff. You know, stuff that runs there and makes the world interesting. It is a game and it needs gameplay, challenge and balance.

 

And after a while, there can only be as many occurences as the coder could figure out and ultimately, I'm afraid, it would be boring in the end.

 

Sort-of GTA4, which is a city life simulator that stuns you at first with all the stuff that is going on: cops chasing criminals, people receiving phone calls, taxis, fire trucks and ambulances doing their jobs... But ultimately, the world is rather boring in the end and there is not so many ways to interact with it, and there is actually no challenge. It's a sandbox you play in for a while and then you get bored. First you see the versatility and are in awe. Then you see the limits and go do something else.

 

---

On-topic:

I spent yesterday evening to figure out modular building facade. Not very easy task: after I while, I realized I was building it just via the old-fashioned way. There has to be some neat way to do it modularily. Probably I need to build two tile modules that separate the interior and exterior. Since it is about learning to think/map in a new way, it is apparently very easy to slip out of the modular-mode if you aren't paying attention. I did not have this problem with the interior modules, for some reason: it is easier to get lost outside, than in inside.

[demagogue]

Actually that video Rich posted is sort of good for thinking about that too, using pieces to make wholes.

 

To at least keep the offtopic stuff out of the way:

 

 

I don't mind thread derailing if the topic is interesting enough...

 

Off-topic:

And after a while, there can only be as many occurences as the coder could figure out and ultimately, I'm afraid, it would be boring in the end.

 

Sort-of GTA4...

 

You don't think about what the original coders can do. You think about what the modders can do on the platform. Don't think GTA4; think Minecraft, where there are hundreds of gameplay mods, adventure maps, RPG-like variations... All the coders need to do is get the basic pieces in, ability to free-build in the world, combat, a little economy like you say, maybe make it multiplayer, then make the whole engine open source, where anything can be easily changed & it's easy to share & revert branches, and let the fans take it from there. (And as Minecraft shows, being open source doesn't stop people from still buying it.)

 

Also IMO Minecraft is the one game that competes with us & T2 FMs for storytelling fan made maps, the only difference being that Minecraft maps are made out of lego-blocks so you can't take them all that seriously; it can kill the atmosphere. But storytelling maps like that in a Skyrim looking world, now we're talking! And now the mapper doesn't have to spend time in an editor building the world. It's procedurally generated in a few minutes, he either takes over a PG village or builds his own, and then he can spend all his time on the story & gameplay. Anyway, where I think this system would shine is for story-telling maps like Minecraft has now, not so much the vanilla game itself -- except for some people that will be happy just free-building castles in-game, fighting monsters, and finding hidden dungeons to explore, like Minecraft. But the fan storytelling maps would be the real prize, that and some multiplayer games people make for each other.

 

 

[Sotha]

 

 

...hundreds of gameplay mods, adventure maps, RPG-like variations...

 

But storytelling maps like that in a Skyrim looking world, now we're talking! And now the mapper doesn't have to spend time in an editor building the world. It's procedurally generated in a few minutes, he either takes over a PG village or builds his own, and then he can spend all his time on the story & gameplay.

 

 

 

 

 

Sure, but...

Hundreds of gameplay mods is not necessarily a good thing. I wanted a fresh Fallout 3 experience... Which mods to choose? Some of them are utter crap breaking balance and other things, some are brilliant. It is difficult to choose from a horde of mods. It is easy for one to think that the vanilla experience is thus the primary one, modded comes second. Trial and error searching for good mods for games is a terrible chore and it is easier to simply pick another game.

 

My main point, I think, is that procedurally created world is bound to be a sandbox world. For me, sandbox games are bound to get very repetitive. Morrowind, Oblivion, Fallout 3... All of them are great at start, but after awhile you have seen it all and they don't throw any more new things at you.

 

Building a different village layout from same village pieces will not help. Storytelling mechanics won't help, if your options are always: Travel to location A. Kill / get dingus A. Travel to location B. Talk to someone, complete quest.

 

Add procedurality into this won't make the game interesting. I think what games overall need nowadays, is some new options to interact with the world. And every play session should have something small but new thrown at the player.

 

 

[demagogue]

This is derailing, so I'll just move it to its own thread.

http://forums.thedarkmod.com/topic/14110-what-procedural-worlds-are-good-for/

[Springheel]

Hundreds of gameplay mods is not necessarily a good thing. I wanted a fresh Fallout 3 experience... Which mods to choose? Some of them are utter crap breaking balance and other things, some are brilliant

 

Precisely why we need some kind of rating system for TDM.

[Sotha]

Modular corridors are very easy to do. I increased the challenge level and built an early experimental house facade modules.

http://i.imgur.com/ac1gk.png

 

Note how the lower level modules contain outside facade and the corridor on the inside. So that seems doable as well.

[Radiant]

Very nice example, I'm looking forward, to see your work in game.

It's wip, right? (Because I see some caulk.) Maybe you can put a small border underneath the roof? (Just an idea to avoid the rough texturechange.)

[Sotha]

Yeah, that was a quick module mashup to see the modules go together without problems. Now that they do, I'll delete the modules making the example building and improve the prime modules by adding details and so forth.

[Sotha]

After redoing 3d building facade modules and combining them a few times, I've come to the conclusion that 3d modules for this purpose are not the optimal way. 3 dimensional full pieces work well for interiors: it is easy to chain the full units.

 

For exteriors there are too many dimensions to pay attention to: the level above, below and the same level. This makes designing perfectly matching modules difficult.

 

For exteriors it is better to

1) stick with same tile size

2) operate with smaller pieces than whole 3d modules: walls with windows/ doors, roofs, balconies. The pieces should be designed to the tile size so that they are easy to place.

 

An interesting observation is that operating in a large 144*144*144 dimension makes accidental leaks very rare. If the modules are well designed, there is no leak risk when you place them according to the tiles.

 

I must next break the exterior modules I showed previously into the smallest useable size: a 144 wall with a window, for example. Then the building facade is built from these components. Less moving parts at once should make piece design easier.

[RPGista]

Well, I actually thought those facade modules were working rather nicely - if you could have a first floor module with a solid wall and window (besides the balcony already in display), you have the bay window module in the ground floor and the inclined roof module to top it of, it seems to work very well - all details like cornices, cornerstones, etc, can and should all be done later and differently for each house anyway, as well as texture choices.

 

The heights can of course vary depending on what a mapper wants, but once the module group is stabilished, it would be a matter of visually letting people know how to alter it easily and make it their own, as long as the base material is there. Good work!

 

It is also a lot about the architecture of the time - in urban historical houses there was usually a hallway connecting rooms to the entrance/staircase but also many rooms were directly connected to each other, so a number of differently shaped rooms could be made to connect with each other inside a given rectangular shape that is the house itself. This house here would be simple to recreate in terms of modules:

 

Edited September 23, 2012 by RPGista

[Tels]

Well, I actually thought those facade modules were working rather nicely - if you could have a first floor module with a solid wall and window (besides the balcony already in display), you have the bay window module in the ground floor and the inclined roof module to top it of, it seems to work very well - all details like cornices, cornerstones, etc, can and should all be done later and differently for each house anyway, as well as texture choices.

 

The heights can of course vary depending on what a mapper wants, but once the module group is stabilished, it would be a matter of visually letting people know how to alter it easily and make it their own, as long as the base material is there. Good work!

 

It is also a lot about the architecture of the time - in urban historical houses there was usually a hallway connecting rooms to the entrance/staircase but also many rooms were directly connected to each other, so a number of differently shaped rooms could be made to connect with each other inside a given rectangular shape that is the house itself. This house here would be simple to recreate in terms of modules:

 

You know, this is funny because one of my projects for Thief was that cowGen, aka a random house generator

 

Couldn't find any screenshots, the must have been lost in the mists of time, but there is that page mentioning it: http://www.angelfire.com/games4/xtarka0/

 

Life has come full circle now

[Sotha]

So what just happened is I built an *entire* ground floor of a castle using the premade modules. It took one hour. Most of the time was consumed by manual visportalling as, in my haste, I forgot to include the visportals into the modules themselves. After that, I added the VPs to the modules of course.

 

Here is my favourite spot:

http://i.imgur.com/APgwR.jpg

 

Now the plan is to build the full castle geometry using the modules. Later I'll add detail modules I can overlap onto the existing modules. A detailed ceiling light, for example. Once it is ready, I'll clone it into the geometry modules I need it in. I'll try to do the same with dirt and other aging effects. Lets see how this goes. At present I'm very confident in my progress.

[RPGista]

Im curious to see what modules you have included there, there's obviously work on a staircase module and the hallway ones, but did you create "room" ones aswell, how is that ground floor organised right now? I mean, do you account for differently sized room areas that are able to fit in the structure provided by the circulation modules?

 

Tels - Its funny to think of a "house generator", I have no clue how that could work . What is easy enough to create is a series of proportional rooms that could be stacked side by side to quickly create the skeleton of a house (specially if you have some floor plans to help you understand how houses are actually organized, something a lot of people simply never thought about). You could have a "living room" prefab, different bedroom ones, etc, but the problem is, how often would they actually suit a mapper, would it be more convenient to work with prefabs and customize them or simply draw it all from scratch. For something like a victorian house, Im not sure.

Edited September 26, 2012 by RPGista

[Sotha]

I have 144*144 unit corridor modules with vaulting. Different variants of that: straight corridor, corner, T-junction, +-junction.

 

Those are used to make the main corridor. Sitting next to the corridor I made 2x2 (144x144) small vaulted rooms. Those were connected to the main corridor with a wall+door modules. Everything is neatly in tiled. Even the 1x2x2 (width x length x height) stairs seen in the screenie fit the specification: they lead directly above the 1st level modules.

 

The building process itself feels a bit like dwarf fortress, you just lay pieces after pieces.