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The Creeps


nbohr1more

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There is no rational decision to join a theistic faith. If there was, then it's not your childlike 'faith' any more than your decided 'following'. A leap of faith into theism is an irrational decision.

 

Ok, I can probably agree with that.

 

Here's where we might disagree. While I think irrational thinking is fine in some cases (my preference for the colour green or the flavour of chocolate may have no rational basis), I don't think it's fine to base your beliefs on irrational thinking. "Theistic faiths" make very specific claims about reality. Any claim about what is real and what is not should be evaluated using reason and rational thought...not simply because of a "leap of faith".

 

That, my friend, is for you to find out via a leap of faith. 'Knowledge by means of Experience' over 'Knowledge by means of Logic'.

 

You're creating a false dichotomy. "Knowledge by means of experience" is not in opposition to logical or rational thought. Other than logical absolutes, I'm not sure you could have any beliefs at all without experiences to base them on. We can't always take our experiences at face value, since we know our senses can be easily fooled, but it would be ridiculous to dismiss them entirely.

 

And you say faith isn't a good way to live your life, but faith is used by everyone always. You have faith the school system wont corrupt your children, that the government wont turn on you, that your wife is faithful to you, that your children and family are honest to you.

 

No, that's actually not the case (though it's a common misconception).

 

First of all, I don't have any belief that the school system won't corrupt my children and that the government won't turn on me. I see both of those as things that could, potentially, happen. I use critical thinking skills to evaluate how *likely* that is to happen, given the way our system of government works, the way the education system works, the chances of us being conquered by another nation, etc.

 

My belief that my wife is faithful to me is also based on reason. I have plenty of evidence to suggest that she is faithful, and no evidence so far to suggest that she is not. My belief is always subject to new evidence coming in. "Faith" is a belief that does not require evidence, and is not swayed by it. An example of a relationship where "faith" is involved would be someone who continued to maintain, even after being regularly beaten and abused by her spouse, that he still "loved her".

 

And I think much of the Bible is much more grounded to reality than what people give it credit for, meaning it tells you dates, places, and provides a story which would indicate lots of witnesses to the claims it makes.

 

Yes, it does mention some real world people and places, but that's hardly a rational reason for believing in the theological claims. It's not rational to believe in Spiderman because we can confirm that his home of New York is a real place.

 

Then you get much of it backed up by archeological digs. One could argue, perhaps some guy named Moses lead 600,000 Israelites out of Egypt,

 

I have to assume you haven't looked into this very much. There is absolutely no evidence to back up the Exodus story, other than the far-fetched Biblical account. There is no historical or archaeological reference to Moses (or his Brother, Aaron), a mass exodus, Egyptian armies being drowned in the Red Sea, or mass plagues destroying the populace. In the case of the ten plagues, these alone would have been enough to completely cripple Egypt economically for decades, if not centuries (what with losing their livestock, crops, army and children). The fact that there are no historical records outside of the Bible of such devastation is quite telling.

 

But what the Bible tells would be a matter of common sense and intuition which lead to weather one believes it or not imo. And I think the degree to which one has these has remained the same through the last 10,000+ years. Because technology and scientific discoveries have nothing to do with common sense imo.

 

I don't really understand what you're talking about with the rest of that paragraph. Scientific discoveries have nothing to do with common sense? Belief in the Bible has been around 10,000 years? Huh? :huh:

 

You said you think there are rational reasons to believe in religion. So far, you've only presented the fact that the Bible mentions some historical people and places, which, as I said earlier, is far from sufficient reason. Are you now saying that belief in the Bible (which is not exactly the same as believing in religion, but I'll let that slide) is just "intuitive" and not thus rational?

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I have to assume you haven't looked into this very much. There is absolutely no evidence to back up the Exodus story, other than the far-fetched Biblical account. There is no historical or archaeological reference to Moses (or his Brother, Aaron), a mass exodus, Egyptian armies being drowned in the Red Sea, or mass plagues destroying the populace. In the case of the ten plagues, these alone would have been enough to completely cripple Egypt economically for decades, if not centuries (what with losing their livestock, crops, army and children). The fact that there are no historical records outside of the Bible of such devastation is quite telling.

I have to assume you haven't either :P One example is the Ipuwer Papyrus. Many say that it has nothing to do with Exodus, many say it does, and a discipline such as interpretation of text can have many rational conclusions. So it does depend on your viewpoint and knowing if your deliberately manipulating the text to fit what you want or not. As for myself I think it's a possibility that it does and a possibility that it doesn't. My beliefs don't need to be 100% either way. I've read about some (questionable) evidence for Sinai and the Red Sea Crossing too. Then there's escape passages that we're thought to have been made for the Ark of the Covenant. I'm not saying it's all 100% correct. And you could make the case that 'this is all fabricated by people who want to prove it,' that could be possible, but I think that argument parallels the idea that 911 was in inside job and I have faith that it wasn't as I have faith these may be legitimate discoveries that need more analysis. But I don't want to start arguing about what is and what isn't fabricated or real or fake ect ect because tbh neither you nor I have the expertise to distinguish it and it would just snowball into pages of nothingness. I don't feel like posting forever :P

 

 

I don't really understand what you're talking about with the rest of that paragraph. Scientific discoveries have nothing to do with common sense? Belief in the Bible has been around 10,000 years? Huh? :huh:

I dunno if your reading my paragraph correctly. Often I find people associate our modern life with the assumption that 'generally people are smarter than 10,000 years ago.' I feel this assumption is wrong.

 

Despite having more technology around us, and the ability to use this technology, people still have the same 'IQ' (if this refers to the amount of common sense) as now imo.

 

Another way of saying this is very smart people can have no common sense and we have no more common sense for using what they constructed.

 

Are you now saying that belief in the Bible (which is not exactly the same as believing in religion, but I'll let that slide) is just "intuitive" and not thus rational?

I'm not sure what your asking can you rephrase this?

Obviously there's faith when believing something like the Bible or any religion but I don't think it's all 100% faith. Maybe that clarifies my position? Often people speak of changed lives after adopting a religion. Even if the divine had nothing to do with it the fact remains their life changed and it makes sense that that belief had something to do with it. So I think it makes sense to see this as a tangible reason to believe in something, even if it was just a coincidence. That's still a pretty nice coincidence.

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I tried moving the religions posts to their own thread, but I've managed to butcher it--for some reason some of the posts won't move (keep getting a server error when I try).

 

Sorry about that. The posts that would move are here: http://forums.thedarkmod.com/topic/11499-faith-reason-and-truth/page__pid__225640__st__50entry225640

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I tried moving the religions posts to their own thread, but I've managed to butcher it--for some reason some of the posts won't move (keep getting a server error when I try).

 

Sorry about that. The posts that would move are here: http://modetwo.net/d...50entry225640

 

Heh. Nice thing to get the thread back to topic. Maybe the magnificent and noble new title will bring in new people joining the discussion.

 

But still... I kinda feel the title 'The Creeps' still fits somehow the discussion we have going on here. ;)

Clipper

-The mapper's best friend.

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Yeah, the moment I hear the name "Foucault" is the moment I start to run. Fast. :laugh:

Come the time of peril, did the ground gape, and did the dead rest unquiet 'gainst us. Our bands of iron and hammers of stone prevailed not, and some did doubt the Builder's plan. But the seals held strong, and the few did triumph, and the doubters were lain into the foundations of the new sanctum. -- Collected letters of the Smith-in-Exile, Civitas Approved

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