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Strange Tearing


LEGION

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I saw it on some FM´s, lately in Melans Return to the City. When I changed the view horizontally I got these tear´s, don´t know how to describe it else. It´s like when you deactivate V-sync (then you have it on vertical), or when the Refresh-rate of your screen is too low. (I got once 50hz accidentally, now I have 60hz btw)

 

It appears only on far textures and I guess it´s related to high quality textures, because I don´t saw this in Doom3 as I looked into it yesterday. In Melans´ mission I saw it quite often. Right at the beginning on the house where you can lockpick the door, if you wanna test it.

 

So I wonder why there is no H-Sync setting? Is V-Sync so powerful that it oppresses such 'rivals'? :D

Edited by LEGION

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V-sync actually means "sync to V-blank", which refers to the moment when the monitor has finished refreshing one frame and is about to display the next. So it actually has nothing to do with vertical versus horizontal artefacts, it just means "lock the frame rate to the refresh rate of the monitor". There is no such concept as "H-sync" in this context.

 

If sync to v-blank is not used, you are likely to see tearing effects during any kind of motion, both horizontal and vertical.

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Sorry, I use Nvidia GeForce 9800 GT and threaded optimization is off.

 

I use the res 1216*692 with AAx4 and anisotropic filtering at 4 too. I use the high quality shader. I saw it most in Melan´s mission, before in Sons of Baltona a little. It´s not on every surface/wall. I think there has to be a lightsource too to cause it.

 

I have to sleep a little and then I play the glenham tower and tell you if I saw it there.

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Yes Fullscreen.

 

I played Glenham Tower now and I´m very sure that this is related to the visportal/performance-thing. Because I saw it in a room with door open. As a

zombie

closed the door again the effect was gone. It´s not limited to horizontal line, my fault. And it´s not limited to light sources too, was just better viewable on them.

 

So, you´ll see it most likely in open areas or when you never close doors (I always close them). I saw it around the tower, but it seemed weaker because I only mentioned it as I got out at the end.

 

Just for my understanding: A 'visportal' opens and closes an area for the renderer, right?. So it is really difficult to use in open areas I guess. Would be having too much visportals a problem, too?

 

edit: On my TV I have maximum 60hz on actual res. Could that be the cause, too?

On my old screen (very old) I always had 85hz.

Edited by LEGION

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Don't know what's causing it.

 

Visportals do help performance though, so when closes (if it's in the doorway as it should be) performance will go up. And lots of open doors will make performance go down.

Areas that aren't optimized well will have bad performance and outdoor areas are harder to optimize.

 

Tearing also occours under faster movements, like you said slowly looking around probably wont cause tearing. But quick movements, running sideways, etc.. are more likely.

Dark is the sway that mows like a harvest

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So, you saw it too? I really would like to know that I´m not the only one having this.

 

I could make a video with Fraps, though I don´t know where to upload it. But the effect is really like without V-sync or on low hz-rates. It´s like part of the screen are behind the movement. And yes, when moving the view slow all is fine. I´m really sure that it happens in wide areas:

 

Tonight I looked into Builder´s Influence and I saw the effect at the starting area. But as I got into the side-alley left of the town-hall the effect was gone. Most likely because there was a visportal at the beginning of that area.

 

I have now some little time so I´ll test some GPU-settings...

 

edit: I found out something new: When I deactivate 'Triple Buffering' the effect is gone, but substituted with a stuttering view-movement. When I come to the areas with better 'visportaling' the view is smooth like it should be. This is even worse than the tearing, so I´ve changed back.

 

Sadly, that means TDM has problems with big areas. Is there a high chance that the team is able to do something about it in the future? (with source code)

 

As we speaking about the engine, I´m curious about what engines the Team thought about in the early days. Meaning, if you´d not chosen Doom3, what would it have been now? This is no critic on the engine, I´m just curious.

I´m very happy with the appearance of TDM. If I would´ve been around in the early days, I would´ve never expected such quality TDM offers now, simply incredible when I think about that you even haven´t had access to the source code. :)

Edited by LEGION

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It sounds like you have a problem with your graphics card or drivers. The non-vsync tearing should not be visible at all if vsync is enabled, which suggests that your graphics setup is not enabling it properly (or at all).

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I tried it with 'Force on' but it´s the same. I said I have this only in wide areas. I use the latest drivers that worked with Doom3. Though I didn´t tried since April newer releases...

 

I use Nvidia GeForce 9800GT and it´s pretty new. (almost half a year old)

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I tried now the newest drivers and hey, there working again with Doom3. But the tearing is still there. I used all GPU-settings. Only 'Triple Buffering' takes effect, but as I described above, it´s even worse.

 

I´m pretty sure that it is a Mod-problem with open/wide areas. I never saw it in Doom3. My V-sync is working fine in other games and in TDM itself, without in open areas.

 

...

 

Now I deactivated V-Sync and there is no difference.

 

But as I changed the aspect ratio back to 4:3 it was gone!! So, I have the tearing in 16:9 (which is best for my screen) and 16:10!!

 

I also tested 'r_displayRefresh 60' but that did nothing. I tested several resolutions in 16:9, but only 1216x692 works perfect without borders or cutting borders. (on my TV)

 

Now that´s odd. I set back to my custom width (I play with the same in Doom3 btw) the tearing seems to be gone.

 

...

 

I started the game now 3 times and the tearing is gone. Can someone explain this to me? I don´t think someone of you used an untearing-spell directly to my system, did you?

I started Return to the City and there it wasn´t too, though it seemed to be slower in the beginning wide area. But Builder´s Influence is running perfect. (first I feared of some reverse-effect, but in the alley it is fine, too:))

 

So, the cure must have been to try several resolutions. Though I had the tearing in the 16:9 res 1280x720 (my actual res is downscaled from this one) that I tried lately. And then I even copied my backup of the doom3config back.

But now it´s gone. Really strange, isn´t it? I still can´t believe it. Now I´ll post this and then I make a reboot and try again...

 

edit:

 

As I feared, the tearing was back after reboot. But I can get around it via res-changing. So, it works now. :) I only have to start the Main menu with another res. Gladly, I don´t have to load a level with another res before changing to my wish-res.

After that do the other widescreen-res´s work fine too.

 

On a sidenote: the res-setting is acting strange. As I set 1280x720 the DoomConfig talked about the next higher, 1366x768 that is. As I set in the Menu to this res, actually I then had the 1280-res.

I think it´s related to 'r_mode -1'. As I remember I had to set this to '-1' for using my custom width. (1216x692)

 

I think I earned the title 'strange problems Man'! :D

Edited by LEGION

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I didn't say I have tearing (v_synch takes care of that for me, though it is really bad without - 22" monitor) just confirming things that would cause it.

 

I almost think your comp is over heating, or maybe just GPU. Not sure, but maybe lowering res (to a 4:3 ratio) helps drop the heat, also rebooting could help...

 

But yes, the engine is not the best for wide open spaces, which doesn't show at all in Doom3 because there were NO wide open spaces. Alot of small tight hallways and a few big rooms with skybox to make them look bigger.

 

The problem with modding (just as issues with T2) is mappers always want to push the boundries, make something bigger and better... Usually pushing what an engine can do. And it's no difference here, though the coders have done a great job improving performance and they are still working on stuff that will help more. But some of that will be in maps AFTER the changes occour, so early maps could still be slower without an update.

Of course as things get faster mappers will push more...

But they will also get better at optimizing as they learn it better.

 

I don't know if the team was interested in other engines or not, I wasn't aroud then. But I don't think 'wide open spaces' was a big concern, Thief gameplay is usually based in old cities, inside mansions, etc... Most of which are tight enclosed areas with lots of twists and turns.

Having to run halfway across the world like in Oblivion is fun, but it's not 'thiefy' imo.

 

Rather the engine was chosen on the use of higher res artwork than T2, source code that will eventually be open, dynamic lighting...

Dark is the sway that mows like a harvest

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I don´t think it´s an overheating issue. Because I have it right after the reboot or when I started the next day and always on the same spots. The V-sync wasn´t simply activated in the widescreen-resolutions.

 

And now I got rid of it, I just have to start the game in a different res and then I copy my doomconfig with my custom res back into the folder and it works fine. I could type in the res manually, too, but I´m too lazy for that.:)

 

Now I´ll play Builder´s Influence so I´ll see if it somehow comes back during the game. I´m usually spending four hours in missions. So if it´s overheating, I´ll see. I hope not, though.

Also, I have a software called 'Vtune' that sets a dynamic Fan speed for my GPU. But I never heard the Fan-speed increase.

 

Is it maybe a reason that I use my Phillipps-TV as the screen? It´s connected via HDMI-cabel and the output is in HD-mode. Because of the HD-mode I had to downscale the res 1280x720 to 1216x692, otherwise the picture was too much zoomed in. Actually I haven´t tried to deactivate HD-mode yet...

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If you want to try activating v-sync in-game without copying doomconfigs around, you might try the console commands:

 

r_swapInterval 1

vid_restart

 

It is possible that the setting simply haven't been saved correctly, I get similar problems with resolution and fullscreen/windowed mode when switching between different FMs.

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Alot of these problems, I think, with settings getting set and erased and reset and such, have to do with overuse of the seta directive in DoomConfigs... this "archives" (writes) the setting to the master (\doom3) DoomConfig.cfg.

 

Or something like that.

 

I kept getting my damned windowed/unwindowed mode flipping back to windowed every time I loaded a brand new FM - until I removed the seta... You don't need it.

 

Or something like that.

Edited by aidakeeley

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@Orbweaver:

 

It´s not helping. The 'swap_interval'-setting was already at 1. I typed it in anyway and after the vid_restart the tearing was still there. But thanks, anyway.

 

for info: I have the tearing on every start, no matter if I install another FM or the FM is already installed.

Switching my TV-HD-mode didn´t helped too. (that was my idea, though)

 

Now this is really strange: I just made my res-switching so I got no tearing. Then I wanted to turn V-sync off and did so in TDM and I also set my Nvidia-settings to 'Force off' and then I started TDM and I got no tearing at all. The Swap_Interval setting was on zero!! I don´t get it.

 

Then I started Thief and the tearing there was barely visible.

 

So it´s not really a V-sync problem, isn´t it? Remember, the tearing I got in TDM is only in wide areas. In rooms I only got it then the door was open. As I closed the door the tearing was gone and then I opened the door again the tearing was back again!!! And it was kind of a big tearing, I guess more noticeable than V-sync-tearing. But I wasn´t able to make a screenshot of it.

 

 

 

@Aida:

 

I deleted all the stuff under 'confirm Quit' in my main Doomconfig. But after I started TDM all the stuff was back in there. What did you do?

 

Also it´s not possible to add stuff in the Doomconfig that is not there in the first place. (Like 'g_fov' f.e.)

 

 

 

And that switching between Fullscreen and Window-mode I never had. Are you both using widescreen-resolutions?

Edited by LEGION

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Tonight I played Lord Dufford´s and got the tearing on two spots were lamps were. When I moved to the opposite direction there was no tearing. The tearing was like one mis-placed broad line and was visible even on slow movement. One spot was in Lord Chasz´s room by the lamp left of the entrance door, where the notes are, if you want to know.

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Is it maybe a reason that I use my Phillipps-TV as the screen? It´s connected via HDMI-cabel and the output is in HD-mode. Because of the HD-mode I had to downscale the res 1280x720 to 1216x692, otherwise the picture was too much zoomed in. Actually I haven´t tried to deactivate HD-mode yet...

 

Hm, it can be a simply bandwidth issue (either on your graphic card or on your monitor or on the connection via "cheap" HDMI cable on both ends). My friend had a similiar problem with an HDTV beamer - the image correctly show on his PC, but the beamer at the same time produced tearing, missing blocks etc.

"The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man." -- George Bernard Shaw (1856 - 1950)

 

"Remember: If the game lets you do it, it's not cheating." -- Xarax

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But yes, the engine is not the best for wide open spaces, which doesn't show at all in Doom3 because there were NO wide open spaces. Alot of small tight hallways and a few big rooms with skybox to make them look bigger.

 

The engine has no problem with wide open spaces, see here:

 

http://www.moddb.com/mods/ground-zero/news/ground-zero-terrain-and-vegetation-tech

 

It is mainly our assets (too many polies etc), our code (no LOD yet, no grouping etc) as well as inexperienced mappers who don't know how to build such big maps efficiently :)

 

But we will get there, don't worry. (OTOH, you are right, mappers will push the boundaries no matter what :)

"The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man." -- George Bernard Shaw (1856 - 1950)

 

"Remember: If the game lets you do it, it's not cheating." -- Xarax

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Hm, it can be a simply bandwidth issue (either on your graphic card or on your monitor or on the connection via "cheap" HDMI cable on both ends). My friend had a similiar problem with an HDTV beamer - the image correctly show on his PC, but the beamer at the same time produced tearing, missing blocks etc.

 

Yes, I have a cheap HDMI-cable (10 €). I guess I need one with gold endings, what should I pay at most? Or what should I look for?

 

edit: That´s too much! :o People who buy that, what do they use it for?

 

I also have HDMI (19 pins) to DVI-D (24+1)-cable. But I guess HDMI to HDMI gives better quality, right?

 

I´ll test now the one that came with my PS3...

 

The PS3-cable makes no difference. It has gold endings and the whole cable is thicker.

Edited by LEGION

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Yes, I have a cheap HDMI-cable (10 €). I guess I need one with gold endings, what should I pay at most? Or what should I look for?

 

edit: That´s too much! :o People who buy that, what do they use it for?

 

I also have HDMI (19 pins) to DVI-D (24+1)-cable. But I guess HDMI to HDMI gives better quality, right?

 

I´ll test now the one that came with my PS3...

 

The PS3-cable makes no difference. It has gold endings and the whole cable is thicker.

 

Gold platings or the cable thickness make not much difference, sadly, so save the money :) (The cable in question is a 20m cable, so it is a bit more expensive, but I think 1000 € is still a rip-off. It might be more expensive than a pure gold cable :)

 

What you need is better shielding (in case the cable crosstalks), as well as look at the cable length (<5m should be ok, shorter is better).

 

The upshot is that HDMI is digital, so either it works, or it doesn't (when it usually fails completely but tearing is also possible), there isn't so much variance as in analogue connection.

 

The HDMI to DVI, hm, interesting, I don't know which signal then gets carried, e.g. the HDMI connector can also carry audio, a VGA signal and I think a DVI signal, too, but I am not sure. Depending on your hardware it can work, not work at all, or work better.

 

So, it an be the cable, but it can also be your monitor - maybe it doesn't manage to decompress and rescale the HDMI signal in real-time (depending on the framerate of the graphic card and the one from the TV).

 

Don't get me started on the mess HDMI is - my monitor recognizes "VGA + analog sound or DVI + analog sound or HDMI + sound-over-HDMI", but refuses to use "HDMI + sound from DVI/extra analog input", but my PC can only output HDMI video (no sound output for sound-over-hdmi). In the end I have a selfmade digital-audio-to-graphic-card-pin cable, which takes my digital audio signal at the backside of the case and feeds it to the internal graphic card, which relays it to the monitor via HDMI out again.. what a mess.

"The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man." -- George Bernard Shaw (1856 - 1950)

 

"Remember: If the game lets you do it, it's not cheating." -- Xarax

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