Container Sounds

[plasticman]

I would like to raise the population in sfx/world/containers.

 

While I am beginning to get used to it, I still think it is confusing to hear the footlockers open with the same sound like the doors. Can be mistaken for a guard entering the door you just closed behind you. (Yes, this made me jump a few times.)

 

I spent a few days with recording, post processing and managed to get things working in game. Here is a sample of my WIP:

 

snd_containers.pk4 (should install like any FM, links to uploaded.to)

 

Please note this is not meant to be final. I am not happy with the timing yet and overall there will be more fitting sounds for the wooden chest.

 

My overambitious plan is to provide six soundshaders for each chest in prefabs/containers:

 

- one for snd_open

- one for snd_close

- four for snd_move:

a. a very moderate non squeeky one, short so it fits a fast moving lid (< 1s)

b. a moderate one, non squeeky, slow moving lid (> 1s)

c. like a. but squeeky

d. like b. but squeeky

To give it some variety I am aiming for 8 samples per shader (any reasons to have more or less?). This would be four times (footlocker, wooden chest, old wooden chest, metal chest), so I will have 24 different sets a 8 samples. Maybe I skip some movement sounds, the old chest should always be squeeky.

 

Please let me know if I am on the right track here. I am open for any suggestions.

 

A few questions that occured to me so far:

 

What about the "description"? At the moment I cannot see descriptions in DR while lines like "Made by XY" are not that descriptive anyways. Can I has something like

 

ye_olde_footlocker_open
{
description "snd_open for ye olde footlocker. Don't ever use as a door sound or your map will break."
no_dups
minDistance	0
	maxDistance	24
	volume	-4

sound/sfx/world/containers/ye_olde_01.ogg
[...]
}

...? With the description visible in DR? Needless to say this is not essential.

 

Where can I learn more about keywords in soundshaders in general?

 

How do I find out which sound events are supported by an entity? I read about snd_move here in the forum, but I can not see it in the inherited properties.

 

Comments welcome.

[aidakeeley]

Excellent! I hope it gets a smooth ride in to 1.04...

 

Can be mistaken for a guard entering the door you just closed behind you. (Yes, this made me jump a few times.)

 

Me too.

 

...

 

Having trouble at the moment with the ul.to thing, though

 

ETA:

 

No longer having trouble with the ul.to thing...

 

ETA2:

 

Okay. Heard them. Liked them. The only criticism I could possibly put forth is maybe a bit too squeaky, but we gotta hear something so not really anything but a criticism in search of a thing to criticize... I appreciate the effort and the handling of a problem that, as I said, I too had been bugged by.

Edited July 24, 2010 by aidakeeley

[Sotha]

The more sounds the mappers have the more immersive the maps will be soundwise.

 

I tested the sounds and I'll put my impressions here in the order I experienced them:

1. After opening the default box the new box sounded nicely refreshing. I felt that the new sound is what these boxes really should sound like. I felt was is a top notch sound.
2. I opened and closed both of the chests and listened some more.
3. The creaking, while it sounded good the first time, started to somehow bug me when I turned the lid a few times. I realized that not all chests in the world have creaky lids.. If this sound is to replace the default one, the creaking should be made more quiet. OR maybe making two sounds, one without the creaking and other with it. The mappers could then choose to put a creaky lid every now and then. But the default sound for a box really would need to sound.. well, default, like the average of all box lids, and in my mind I cannot see the default box lid to creak so loudly.
4. The sound otherwise beats the default sound, but you really need to do something about the creaking. The opening sound before the creaking and the closing THUNK are very good.

I hope this helps! I'll gladly test new revisions.

[plasticman]

I realized that not all chests in the world have creaky lids..

 

No? -- I haven't seen any lubricant in the mod ...

 

 

Think of it as a placeholder for any move sounds. I hope the prefabs will eventually default to a very subtle non sqeeky move sound.

[Springheel]

Thanks for taking this on. Let me know when you're happy with the results and I'll make sure they get added to the developer build.

[Baddcog]

I haven't listened but I'll take Sotha's word they sound good

 

I was just posting the other day saying how much I wanted this, so GOOD TIMING!!!

 

I agree that a squeaky alternative would be good, especially for rusty old chests in a cave, ruins, etc... But an acception, not the rule. We do have on 'old' chest that might be good to have squeaks on as a default.

[Sotha]

I haven't listened but I'll take Sotha's word they sound good

 

 

No no no! Don't take my word for it, I've no qualifications for sound evaluation.

 

We need more opinions. Test the sounds, it's really easy, just install the linked test FM and fire it up as usual.

[Baddcog]

Ok Ok, I dled it. I know you're still working... just my thoughts..

 

I think the squeak is fine for something old and rusty.

 

I guess it's hard to think of how a sound should be for something that probably really doesn't make alot of sound anyway. But maybe they could all squeak, but just at about 1/3 of the volume (leave the rusty one loud).

That way you can 'hear' it open, but it's very minimal. They did have oil back then... I'll make an oil can one of these days.

 

What I didn't like was the sound that went along with the sqeauk on open. Sounded like a wood drawer opening fast and hard to me. In fact I don't think there should be a sound there, the chest isn't going to 'clunk' when you raise the lid. Maybe when the lid finished moving, but not at the start.

 

I thought the close clunk sounded good for a wood chest, but maybe for those chests and the all metal one it would be nice to have a metallic clunk (it's metal pieces hitting each other.) But maybe it was a little slow/long. Seems a bit unatural.

 

Might also be nice to have an even quieter version of wood chest for small jewelry boxes. They'd make VERY little noise.

[plasticman]

What I didn't like was the sound that went along with the sqeauk on open. Sounded like a wood drawer opening fast and hard to me. In fact I don't think there should be a sound there, the chest isn't going to 'clunk' when you raise the lid. Maybe when the lid finished moving, but not at the start.

As far as I know we don't have a trigger at the end of the move. Correct me if there are more options than snd_open, snd_close and snd_move, because that's the scheme I'm currently working in.

 

You are right, the models in game look like there should be no opening sound. I also checked on some containers in real life, most of them are rather quiet. But would that be appropriate in the mod? -- I don't think so. These containers are a vital part of the thief-like gameplay, people spend time on picking the lock or searching for a key and should be rewarded with a cool sound when they finally open it.

 

The "drawer" sound: it will get toned down if I decide to keep it at all.

 

Thanks for your input!

[Baddcog]

You're welcome.

 

I do believe snd_close plays when it comes to a close, not when it starts to close. That's when the doors clunk.

 

It's the starting to close sound that people want (so doors can scrape while opening AND closing)

 

I just think maybe a really toned down squeak on the way up for most chests would be best. As close to realism as possible, with 'slight' exceptions to the rule to make it a more lively experience. So even just a hint of noise will make it feel alive, whereas a weird clunk on open, or annoying loud squeak aren't optimial IMO.

[plasticman]

Something.

 

 

I just finished three sound shaders for the wooden chest. As usual, fan mission format.

 

You can grab it here (uploaded.to, less than 400 kb).

 

I consider this to be ready to get in the mod.

 

Non the less, comments are welcome -- I think I can use the current setup as a base to work from and modify them for the remaining big containers (chest_old, chest_metal, footlocker).

 

No promises on the time frame though -- recording needs time and even more time to bring it in game where you figure it just doesn't sound right...

...I didn't work on this for two months or so when none of my sounds felt right in game. Frustrating when you are not a foley artist, I just ran out of ideas how to make sounds. [whine] And then my headphones died! [/whine]

Finally the solution was mixing different non fitting sounds together, including some heavy post production.

 

--

[OrbWeaver]

mixing[/i] different non fitting sounds together, including some heavy post production.

 

Yep, that's an important technique. I've discovered myself that tweaking and mixing existing sounds is much easier than trying to record new ones in certain cases.

[Aprilsister]

I consider this to be ready to get in the mod.

 

I consider it a fine addition! Viva La Difference!

[Tels]

As far as I know we don't have a trigger at the end of the move. Correct me if there are more options than snd_open, snd_close and snd_move, because that's the scheme I'm currently working in.

 

Even we don't have then, it is almost trivial to add them, and if you are going to all the length of making the sounds, please make the closing sounds, too!

 

(Mappers already complained that if you have doors that take a long while to open/close, they need a different sound looped while moving and another sound when they close - the standard open-move-close sound in one go doesn't work here.)

 

Edit: I couldn't pass the captcha test. Seems I am finally getting dumber than a spambot...

[Springheel]

I can't promise I'll have a chance to look at these any time soon. Orb, if you like them, perhaps you could upload them to SVN?

[Bikerdude]

I went to download the file but it dosent exist...?!

[Aprilsister]

sounds_chest_wood.txt

 

File attached here as "sounds_chest_wood.txt" which is really just a renamed "sounds_chest_wood.pk4"...

[OrbWeaver]

Orb, if you like them, perhaps you could upload them to SVN?

 

Just checked out the demo FM, and yes I think these are definitely candidates for inclusion. However, I would rather avoid committing just .ogg files without also adding the source files to the sound_src repository (we have way too many unsourced oggs already, and volume or EQ tweaks are often necessary once these things get playtested in real missions).

 

plasticman: could you please upload the uncompressed versions of these sounds as well? WAV, FLAC or anything lossless and open will be fine. You could try a site like Sharingmatrix, Hotfile, or Megaupload if the uncompressed versions are too large for the forum.

[plasticman]

..., please make the closing sounds, too!

Not sure I get you right, but there are closing sounds.

 

(Mappers already complained ..., they need a different sound looped while moving and another sound when they close - the standard open-move-close sound in one go doesn't work here.)

I didn't think of a looped move sound before, so I sure keep that mind. It won't be necessary for the wooden chest IMO. Any movement time > 1 s is way too long for that. But it is sure an option for the old chest, that, discovered in an underground, long deserted pirate cave, opened with an old rusty key that needs to be retrieved from a wrecked ship at the other side of the map, makes a very long squeeking opening sound...

 

@Aprilsister: Thanks for putting it up here. (How come I didn't think of this in the first place?)

 

However, I would rather avoid committing just .ogg files without also adding the source files to the sound_src repository (we have way too many unsourced oggs already, and volume or EQ tweaks are often necessary once these things get playtested in real missions).

True. Beside my little testing environment I modified some containers in Outpost to check my sounds in a "real" mission (not the best choice, it lacks ambient sounds and music iirc). If tweaking in that regard is desired I would prefer to do that inside my sound app and provide a "remix".

 

I am using renoise btw., best "source" would be if I sent you the *.xrns (renoise format module), which holds all the source samples, efx-chains etc. -- but if this is not how the repository is organized I am happy to send the waves as well.

 

The only problem is a broken router that my ISP hopefully replaces tomorrow...

 

You could try a site like Sharingmatrix, Hotfile, or Megaupload if the uncompressed versions are too large for the forum.

Thanks. Really don't know much about filehosters, ul.to was my second guess after the big one, which wanted me to register or limit the number of downloads... ...maybe I'll finally have a look at ubuntu one.

 

Another question: I figured the volume setting in the shader has an effect on stereo perception. It seems not only to change the volume. When you crank it up on 50 it sounds omnidirectional whithin several meters.

No idea wether this is intended behavior or a bug, nor if Doom or TDM is to blame. It shouldn't be like that, right?

[Tels]

Not sure I get you right, but there are closing sounds.

 

Sorry, you can disregard my post, I was replying to a really outdated post.

[OrbWeaver]

True. Beside my little testing environment I modified some containers in Outpost to check my sounds in a "real" mission (not the best choice, it lacks ambient sounds and music iirc). If tweaking in that regard is desired I would prefer to do that inside my sound app and provide a "remix".

 

It's not so much about what needs tweaking now, but what might need tweaking in six months time when the original author is no longer contributing, contactable, or has deleted all of their old projects. Having the sources available is critical for handling this kind of situation, as I have already discovered when modifying some of the existing footsteps which don't have WAVs available.

 

I am using renoise btw., best "source" would be if I sent you the *.xrns (renoise format module), which holds all the source samples, efx-chains etc. -- but if this is not how the repository is organized I am happy to send the waves as well.

 

I'm a Renoise user myself so .xrns is fine, basically anything that can be used to recreate the compressed .oggs without serial compression artifacts is ideal.

 

Another question: I figured the volume setting in the shader has an effect on stereo perception. It seems not only to change the volume. When you crank it up on 50 it sounds omnidirectional whithin several meters.

No idea wether this is intended behavior or a bug, nor if Doom or TDM is to blame. It shouldn't be like that, right?

 

I don't have a definitive answer on this, but as far as I can tell positive volume changes have no effect in .sndshd files, you can only reduce the volume from 0dB. The best thing to do is master the sounds at a high-ish level and reduce the volume in the shader if required.

[plasticman]

It's not so much about what needs tweaking now, but what might need tweaking in six months time when the original author is no longer contributing, contactable, or has deleted all of their old projects.

OK. I sent you a PM pointing to a .zip that contains all the sources and a description. Should be sufficient for anyone to take things up if needed.

 

positive volume changes have no effect in .sndshd files, you can only reduce the volume from 0dB.

It definately gets louder with positive values. I tried to get some info on modwiki, but it only says volume sets the volume inside minDistance, not which values are valid. Maybe there is a problem with minDistance being set to 0. Will do a little testing when I have time.

 

The best thing to do is master the sounds at a high-ish level and reduce the volume in the shader if required.

In general yes, why throw away the dynamic range? -- For what I am doing here it can be discussed. I tried to fake the object's resonance via an impulse response processor in the mastering section. Therefore I had to set the relative volumes before that section so the comparatively quiet move sounds do not trigger more resonance than you expect them to. That's why chest_wood_close define the peak, and chest_wood_move can barely be heard.

 

Yes, that's overdoing things.

[lost_soul]

Thanks for working on this. I was one of the guys who felt we could use more door sounds. I know the team is busy with the gameplay and mod in general, so it is nice to see users contributing things to make the project better. I considered trying to record door sounds, but it is a delicate art. You don't want them to be too loud and aggressive (what thief would ever use doors like that?), but you want them to be audible at the same time. There are some alternate door sounds in the TDM resources, but they weren't used much up until recently. Bikerdude's latest mission used a variety of them for example.

[OrbWeaver]

OK. I sent you a PM pointing to a .zip that contains all the sources and a description. Should be sufficient for anyone to take things up if needed.

 

Got it, thanks.

 

It definately gets louder with positive values. I tried to get some info on modwiki, but it only says volume sets the volume inside minDistance, not which values are valid. Maybe there is a problem with minDistance being set to 0. Will do a little testing when I have time.

 

That's interesting, maybe the reason I never experienced a positive effect was because I was not within minDistance at the time. I tend to avoid minDistance values because they don't correctly model how sound actually behaves, resulting in the typical "deafeningly loud machine that falls off to silence within 10 metres".

 

[i30817]

Creakychest could be tied to game-play. Needs a oil flash to open silently?