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Nosslak
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Looks good. The bit on the top could even be made into a separate object - a wrought iron decoration for rooflines (maybe elongated as a pole?), entrances and the side of gates (where a similar object was often used to protect the stones from traffic).

Come the time of peril, did the ground gape, and did the dead rest unquiet 'gainst us. Our bands of iron and hammers of stone prevailed not, and some did doubt the Builder's plan. But the seals held strong, and the few did triumph, and the doubters were lain into the foundations of the new sanctum. -- Collected letters of the Smith-in-Exile, Civitas Approved

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Looks really good but the complexity worries me performance-wise. But probably a lot of that could be replaced with good texturing and a normal map. Have you examined any of our existing lights?

 

The steps are generally...

 

1. Model a high poly model.

2. Model a low poly model around it.

3. Bake a normal map from the high poly model onto the low poly model.

 

But since he doesn't know how to UV map, he can't really do step 3.

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Looks really good but the complexity worries me performance-wise. But probably a lot of that could be replaced with good texturing and a normal map. Have you examined any of our existing lights?

Nah, I haven't really looked at anything yet. Baddcog told me kind of how they worked, though. Basically I should make a shadow mesh that will be used when the lights turned off, I should make the material úse a noshadow property and I should map the framing around the lamps to an alpha mapped cylinder which will let another cylinder with the light materials shine through.

 

Looks good. The bit on the top could even be made into a separate object - a wrought iron decoration for rooflines (maybe elongated as a pole?), entrances and the side of gates (where a similar object was often used to protect the stones from traffic).

If there is any interest in this then this could be done very easily when I'm finished with the texturing.

 

The steps are generally...

 

1. Model a high poly model.

2. Model a low poly model around it.

3. Bake a normal map from the high poly model onto the low poly model.

 

But since he doesn't know how to UV map, he can't really do step 3.

Yeah, that's basically the workflow I was shooting for. I can unwrap and texture my models I'm just not very good at it and most of the time the problem lies in the fact that my generated normal and ambient occlusion maps turn out crappy for some unknown reason, but I will persist, one day I will make it work.

Edited by Nosslak
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Ok, I think I'm finished with the highpoly now. Here's the short version:

Steampunklamppost3.jpg

 

Here it is in it's full glory:

Full - featuring the nekkid man

Bottom

 

edit: It's really hard to both keep most details, make it somewhat smooth and keep it below 1000 polygons but I think I'll be able to just make it without exceeding the limit.

Edited by Nosslak
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Ok, the lowpoly is pretty much finished now. It's not as lowpoly as I had hoped, but it'll have to do. Here it is:

Steampunklamppostlow.jpg

I will make the ring on the arms as an alpha mapped plane, that's why it's not included.

 

It landed on 1087 polygons, so I'm not sure it's usable in the game, but I can't shave off many more polygons and still keep the shape. I will try to optimize it some more but I doubt I'll be able to get it below 1000 triangles.

 

Will it still be usable?

Edited by Nosslak
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I don't know, but didn't that just remove a lot of the necessary detail on the base? I think those grooves and rings gave the lamp its charm. Or maybe I am missing something and they are brought back with normalmaps or something like that..

Come the time of peril, did the ground gape, and did the dead rest unquiet 'gainst us. Our bands of iron and hammers of stone prevailed not, and some did doubt the Builder's plan. But the seals held strong, and the few did triumph, and the doubters were lain into the foundations of the new sanctum. -- Collected letters of the Smith-in-Exile, Civitas Approved

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Yup, should be fine :)

 

Looking very nice!

Looks great! :)

Thanks!

 

I don't know, but didn't that just remove a lot of the necessary detail on the base? I think those grooves and rings gave the lamp its charm. Or maybe I am missing something and they are brought back with normalmaps or something like that..

I wanted to keep those too, but I just didn't have enough polygons to spare, but hopefully the normal map will be able to project most of those back onto the lowpoly anyway.The silhouette will still look the same but it may look like the details are there on the lowpoly, as the normal map alters the way it is lit.

Edited by Nosslak
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Ok, the lowpoly is pretty much finished now. It's not as lowpoly as I had hoped, but it'll have to do. Here it is:

 

I will make the ring on the arms as an alpha mapped plane, that's why it's not included.

 

It landed on 1087 polygons, so I'm not sure it's usable in the game, but I can't shave off many more polygons and still keep the shape. I will try to optimize it some more but I doubt I'll be able to get it below 1000 triangles.

 

Will it still be usable?

 

Don't worry too much about polys. You should in fact make a low-poly with about 1000 tris as you had done, but also add a "medium" poly version with say 2000 polys. This is a very good showcase object for TDM, which is also very big, so having 2000 or even 4000 polys on it is better than having only 1000 and having it look like crap from closeup (the best normalmap can't hide that you have not enough polygons to make it appear round). We have many much much smaller models that already use several hundred polys, so having a streetlamp having 1000 seems ridiculous low.

 

We will not use many of these lamps in a given scene, so their polycount is not as critical as you might think (and contrary what some other people here say :).

 

Also, D3 has no problem pushing excess polygons - I just tested a scene with about 7 million polygons and my system still rendered 10..18 FPS. A few thousand polys more or less won't make any difference. What makes a critical difference is shadowcasting polys. These should be as low as possible while still capturing the silhouette.

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"The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man." -- George Bernard Shaw (1856 - 1950)

 

"Remember: If the game lets you do it, it's not cheating." -- Xarax

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I'd like to see a wireframe. I can already see two spots that you could shave some and really not lose any shape.

 

Tels is just over excited about his LOD work ;) lol. I think 1000 is fine and with a good normal map bake it'll look great in game and as I said before, it is at the top of the polycount for any lights we have currently, so it's not like you're 'cutting corners'.

 

Bake that thing and lets get it in game!

Dark is the sway that mows like a harvest

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Don't worry too much about polys. You should in fact make a low-poly with about 1000 tris as you had done, but also add a "medium" poly version with say 2000 polys. This is a very good showcase object for TDM, which is also very big, so having 2000 or even 4000 polys on it is better than having only 1000 and having it look like crap from closeup (the best normalmap can't hide that you have not enough polygons to make it appear round). We have many much much smaller models that already use several hundred polys, so having a streetlamp having 1000 seems ridiculous low.

Ok, so should I make a more dense mesh or not? I'm not really sure who's the leader yet so I'm not sure who to listen to the most. I will still have to unwrap and texture both of them individually though, right?

 

We will not use many of these lamps in a given scene, so their polycount is not as critical as you might think (and contrary what some other people here say :).

 

Also, D3 has no problem pushing excess polygons - I just tested a scene with about 7 million polygons and my system still rendered 10..18 FPS. A few thousand polys more or less won't make any difference. What makes a critical difference is shadowcasting polys. These should be as low as possible while still capturing the silhouette.

Yeah, but Baddcog told me in my other thread that a lot of the people who might be interested in the mod have really bad computers that barely can run Doom 3. So not everyone might have a computer as good as yours.

 

I'd like to see a wireframe. I can already see two spots that you could shave some and really not lose any shape.

Ok, there you go:

Steampunklamppostlow2.jpg

1027 polygons and that is without the alpha planes which I'll add later, which will at most most add 24 triangles, depending on if I'll do double planes or just singular (double planes will supposedly make it look like it has got some depth. Oh and the subdivisions that doesn't add anything to the shape on the pole are there for texturing purposes.

 

Tels is just over excited about his LOD work ;) lol. I think 1000 is fine and with a good normal map bake it'll look great in game and as I said before, it is at the top of the polycount for any lights we have currently, so it's not like you're 'cutting corners'.

 

Bake that thing and lets get it in game!

One final question though, that part of the lamp that is supposed to emit the lamp, the one that is supposed to use another material and all that, should that be a part of the same mesh?

 

Looks really nice! I wish I could do something like that, but as they say: some people have it and some people don't. :laugh:

Wow, thanks a lot, man.

Edited by Nosslak
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Well, Springheel is the 'art dept. lead'. I've never known him to be a major stickler on polycounts, but like I said we 'try' to keep things rational.

And I think he'd say 1000 is a good area to be at there. With a good normal it's gonna look pretty good anyway, and it'll be in the same 'detail range' as other models so it won't look 'out of place'.

 

And honestly imo a lamp isn't something that needs to be really fancy, we've got some pretty high poly statues but that's 'a work of art'...

 

Tels is talking about having higher poly versions in addition to the low for the LOD system he's working on. You get really close and you see the fancy 2000 poly version, you get along ways away and you see the low poly version. A way to enhance up close visuals but keep performance over a distance.

But that also produces 'artifacts' when the model changes from one to the other. If the models are done very well and the change distance isn't too close it can be pretty smooth. But if not done right can be very ugly and distracting.

I personally prefer just to have a decent looking model that stays consistant.

(That'll be authors choice [ I believe], if they want better graphics they can set those props, if they want better performance they can choose no LOD)

 

You also have to keep in mind that alot of players are coming from T1/T2 and already think visually TDM is a giant step. T1 AI were 800 polys, T2 were 1100, TDM are 2-3000 plus normal maps. An apply in T1 was probably 20 polys, ours are probably 100...

We're trying to make a T1/2 experience in a more modern engine with better graphics, not necessarily trying to beat out Crysis.

 

-------------

I'll do a paint over of the pic in a few hours.

 

For the lamp glass I would just clone the main head, shrink it a bit so it's inside the main. Don't normal map it though, just use one of our glass textures on those planes.

Then normal map and alpha the main head for the window trims.

 

And yes, the main model, glass, collision and shadow meshes just get exported in one file.

 

Also, smooth the model so it'll shade smoothly in the engine. Then any hard lines you want (like the square edges along the bottom) all need to be detached, that's the only way to get a sharp edge in the engine AND have smooth parts (like a round pole). So detach any polys you want to have a sharp edge, the re-attach them all back into one mesh, but DON'T weld verts.

 

And each material needs to be it's own mesh. So metal is one mesh, glass is a second mesh, collision is a third, shadow is a fourth. (I don't think there is a limit).

Center the pole on the grid and have the bottom of it sitting at 0 (z plane) (objects origins are at 0,0,0 - especially important with moving objects as the rotate around that point, center of gravity and all that)

Dark is the sway that mows like a harvest

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Last week I stumbled over MeshLab again, the previous times that I'd seen it, I thought it was either commercial or industrial software, but it's actually open and very slick. It's intended for research use mostly, however from playing around it does seem to have some very interesting options and does a great job with the different forms of decimation and optimization that it offers. Over all I think if you're into modeling and have a mind for experimentation and technical things, it could be a quite powerful tool (tho it cant be used without another modeling tool for actual export and most likely UVing.)

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This is what I'd do to the low.

 

The red are areas to cut. Those details are so small you really wont notice them in game, and that's around 100 polys. The normal map should show those just fine.

 

The orange just kindof represents where I'd seperate the polys from each other to force hard lines (based on your hi poly).

 

and honestly, I think it'll look better without those rings. I just don't think they fit the style of it very well and instersect the top piece of the lamp head kindof weird..

post-1981-128053310015_thumb.jpg

Dark is the sway that mows like a harvest

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And I think he'd say 1000 is a good area to be at there. With a good normal it's gonna look pretty good anyway, and it'll be in the same 'detail range' as other models so it won't look 'out of place'.

 

Yep, that's fine.

 

I personally prefer just to have a decent looking model that stays consistant.

 

Agreed.

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Last week I stumbled over MeshLab again, the previous times that I'd seen it, I thought it was either commercial or industrial software, but it's actually open and very slick. It's intended for research use mostly, however from playing around it does seem to have some very interesting options and does a great job with the different forms of decimation and optimization that it offers. Over all I think if you're into modeling and have a mind for experimentation and technical things, it could be a quite powerful tool (tho it cant be used without another modeling tool for actual export and most likely UVing.)

Seems cool, I'll give it a try.

 

This is what I'd do to the low.

 

The red are areas to cut. Those details are so small you really wont notice them in game, and that's around 100 polys. The normal map should show those just fine.

 

The orange just kindof represents where I'd seperate the polys from each other to force hard lines (based on your hi poly).

 

and honestly, I think it'll look better without those rings. I just don't think they fit the style of it very well and instersect the top piece of the lamp head kindof weird..

I think I'll keep the rings but thanks for the other tips though, it helped me remove around 100 polygons just as you said.

 

No need. The high res model is only necessary to bake the normal map.

Well, I didn't really mean the highpoly, I meant the slightly higher poly mesh for the lod system.

 

I'm completely finished with the modelling now and will go unwrap it. Here's how the even lower lowpoly looks like now:

Steampunklamppostlow3-1.jpg

1013 polygons.

 

Quick question: In Doom 3 or Dark Radiant do I have to split the UV at every part that I want to have a sharp edge and do every place that I split the UV at get a sharp crease?

 

Quick question 2: Were I supposed to include the glass part of the lamp in the same unwrap or should it be unwrapped all by itself?

Edited by Nosslak
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Well, I didn't really mean the highpoly, I meant the slightly higher poly mesh for the lod system.

 

Yeah, I'd be interested in that :)

 

I'm completely finished with the modelling now and will go unwrap it. Here's how the even lower lowpoly looks like now:

10013 polygons.

 

Did you mean 1013 polys, or is this not the "lower lowpoly" but the "higher highpoly"? :)

 

Can't answer question #1 but:

 

Quick question 2: Were I supposed to include the glass part of the lamp in the same unwrap or should it be unwrapped all by itself?

 

Yeah, the glass should be its own surface/mesh, so we can switch the material (aka skin) for it independent from the lamp. F.i. heathaze glass, normal glass, opaque glass etc. depending on what the mapper wants or the LOD system might f.i. switch distance lamps to normal glass etc.

"The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man." -- George Bernard Shaw (1856 - 1950)

 

"Remember: If the game lets you do it, it's not cheating." -- Xarax

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Did you mean 1013 polys, or is this not the "lower lowpoly" but the "higher highpoly"? :)

I failed. Yeah, I meant 1013 polys. 10 000 would be crazy for that.

 

Yeah, the glass should be its own surface/mesh, so we can switch the material (aka skin) for it independent from the lamp. F.i. heathaze glass, normal glass, opaque glass etc. depending on what the mapper wants or the LOD system might f.i. switch distance lamps to normal glass etc.

OK, that's what I though too. Thanks!

 

EDIT: Do you have a LOD system for textures? If you do what is the smallest texture sizes it will use? Also can I use another texture layout for the alpha map?

Edited by Nosslak
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