Nosslaks stuff

[Nosslak]

The anatomy looks a bit off now. I'd suggest just trying to find some anatomy drawings of humans and go off of those...

I did base the body on another image that I thought were anatomically correct, but maybe it wasn't after all.

 

Or find pics of a skeleton, and just use that. Seems to me you are somewhere in between trying to make a human and emancipating it. A skeleton would give you a really solid shape to just 'skin'. It'll show correct proportions, where all the bumps need to be, etc...

Yeah, I should probably just try to skin a skeleton model instead as that sounds a bit easier and I already do have an old skeleton model that I think have correct anatomy and such:

I'm not entirely sure if the anatomy on him is correct and I made it back when I knew even less about anatomy (I worked off of references though), but it looks right to me (except for the holes in the forehead obvously).

The current zombie with the rotten skin works very well in my opinion and should probably be studied.

Alright, I'll try to make it a bit more similar to that.

 

I agree with Baddcog concerning using an accurate human body as a base for your model (thats not to diminish your current work which is looking quite good so far, specially the head). Im sure there are dozens of free human models around for you to work upon, wouldnt that be easier?

It would indeed be easier but I would like to further my own skill in modeling characters so I don't really want to do that.

 

As far as the actual zombie, Im not really up to date with modern game zombies, so wouldnt know about references, but you could probably make a choice between two types - a somewhat intact zombie like you see already in the mod or in most movies (walking dead series, 28 days later, etc), like this:

 

Or a really decomposed one, getting pretty close to being a skeleton:

I think I'll go for a bit more of an intact zombie then.

 

So far it resembles a lot a mannequin or a crash-test dummy, but realize it is very WIP.

 

Those skeleton/muscle scetches BC showed would probably be a step to the correct direction. How to add wounds and damage to that is beyond me and I'm afraid of doing google image search on those.. I imagine it is difficult to get the style we have in TDM from a cartoony scetch.

 

What kind of face the zombie should have? RPGista's suggestion looks a bit polished, vampire type. Here is one a bit more decomposed face: Harold. It is a bit along the one in the scetch.

That's pretty much the kind of face I wanted to make for him, but I'm not sure if I can make such a face without making it obvious that it's repeated throughout a group of zombies.

[Springheel]

If the goal is to replace the existing zombie, then it needs to be almost exactly like the existing zombie, complete with the same basic skins (a dead corpse, a bloody version, and the necromantic symbol version).

 

If it's meant to be an alternate version, then the sky is the limit.

 

I favour the Walking Dead faces:

 

[Baddcog]

the 3/4 view makes it pretty hard to judge whether or not it is anatomically correct for sure.

 

The skull on yours seems a bit off, but maybe you can just tweak it a bit with some refs and get it closer. Would be cool to have a skeleton too, so if you just tweak that and get it pretty close, then build a zombie mesh based on it they'd both be easy to fit to the same rig and all.

[Springheel]

then build a zombie mesh based on it they'd both be easy to fit to the same rig and all.

 

Yes, that's how the current D3 zombie works. Both the skeleton and zombie meshes use the same rig and just swap nodraw skins

[Melan]

Some of those (e.g. Harold) are more goofy than frightening, though. At least the default Doom zombies look sick and emaciated.

Edited March 10, 2012 by Melan

[Nosslak]

If the goal is to replace the existing zombie, then it needs to be almost exactly like the existing zombie, complete with the same basic skins (a dead corpse, a bloody version, and the necromantic symbol version).

 

If it's meant to be an alternate version, then the sky is the limit.

 

I favour the Walking Dead faces:

 

It was supposed to replace the current one so I'll just import the current one and see to it that the proportions are the same.

 

the 3/4 view makes it pretty hard to judge whether or not it is anatomically correct for sure.

 

The skull on yours seems a bit off, but maybe you can just tweak it a bit with some refs and get it closer. Would be cool to have a skeleton too, so if you just tweak that and get it pretty close, then build a zombie mesh based on it they'd both be easy to fit to the same rig and all.

Here's an orthographic front image of it:

Yeah, I can see some problems too now:

- The individual ribs will need to be bigger.

- He needs a tailbone.

- The heels are lacking.

- The jaw needs to be redone.

- He might need to be taller.

 

Yes, that's how the current D3 zombie works. Both the skeleton and zombie meshes use the same rig and just swap nodraw skins

Do we need to make a new rig as well? I want to use him for a small school project which would require me to make my own rig and animations to animate to a game engine so I were going to make those anyway.

[Springheel]

Yes, we would need a new rig and replacements for all the D3 animations that are used in any map. The joints will have to have the same names as the current ones for attachment purposes. It will need a new AF as well. It's a lot of work, but without those, any map using zombies or skeletons would crash.

[Nosslak]

Yes, we would need a new rig and replacements for all the D3 animations that are used in any map. The joints will have to have the same names as the current ones for attachment purposes. It will need a new AF as well. It's a lot of work, but without those, any map using zombies or skeletons would crash.

Alright, what's an AF?

[Baddcog]

Articulated Figure... ie: ragdoll.

 

These are a pain in the butt, basically in game you open console, spawn the mesh, then start adding cubes (bodies) to each major bone. (You can use one cube for the entire hand, but forearm needs a bone, upper arm needs bone...).

 

The you adjust the link type of each joint (hinge, conical) and the angles at which they are allowed to bend (hip is conical, elbow is hinge), and the stiffness for each one.

 

And a list of contained joints (ie base joint includes all joints each typed out in order), the hip contains all leg bones, the upper leg bone contains all lower bones....

 

Anything wrong and you CTD if you touch the mesh in game.

 

Rigging is easy, this is TOUGH (in caps even)

[Nosslak]

Yeah, that does sound cumbersome. Can I export and play the animations without those joints?

 

Is there anything else I need to know about the animations system (does it support IK, constraints and such)?

[Baddcog]

The IK is built in. Mainly just for the legs so they always hit the ground.

 

And that is just signified by 'knee bones'. Basically you need an extra bone on the outside of the knees joint. Really doesn't matter where, just so it's origin is on the side of the joint that bends outwards. (so in front of the knee) That tells the ik that it's the outside of that joint. (might need one for hip and ankle too, on my lantern bot I only used a knee, the rats don't have them at all)

 

You can make a mesh and animate it, put it in game and watch the anims. My gargoyle is in this condition. He'll fly around properly and play the anims, but if he touches you CRASH! (of course he isn't an ai so he doesn't see, attack, etc..)

Also, his feet will clip through the ground because he doesn't have an af (which controls the ik, so instead of feet going through ground knees would bend more).

[Springheel]

To add further to the irritation of this task, the various "sleeping" animations would have to be recreated at precisely the same height as the current ones, so that after switching to the new zombies they aren't clipping into things in maps.

[Nosslak]

The IK is built in. Mainly just for the legs so they always hit the ground.

 

And that is just signified by 'knee bones'. Basically you need an extra bone on the outside of the knees joint. Really doesn't matter where, just so it's origin is on the side of the joint that bends outwards. (so in front of the knee) That tells the ik that it's the outside of that joint. (might need one for hip and ankle too, on my lantern bot I only used a knee, the rats don't have them at all)

 

You can make a mesh and animate it, put it in game and watch the anims. My gargoyle is in this condition. He'll fly around properly and play the anims, but if he touches you CRASH! (of course he isn't an ai so he doesn't see, attack, etc..)

Also, his feet will clip through the ground because he doesn't have an af (which controls the ik, so instead of feet going through ground knees would bend more).

So in other words I can import the animations with IKs and all that just fine, but legs won't follow the ground if I don't make an AF, is that correct?

 

To add further to the irritation of this task, the various "sleeping" animations would have to be recreated at precisely the same height as the current ones, so that after switching to the new zombies they aren't clipping into things in maps.

Sounds like I could more or less just trace those animations from the old ones if I have to. So it doesn't sound too bad.

 

I also adjusted the proportions to fit the old zombie better:

It looks a lot better but I'll need to keep working on the crotch.

[Baddcog]

I don't know if the IK's will import well or not. I don't think it matters, only the bones/mesh will be in the game.

 

But yeah, the game won't read any IK, in will only keep the feet in contact with the ground if there is an af. (and bones in front of knees)

[Bikerdude]

looking good Noss.

[Baddcog]

There are a few things that look odd to me:

 

1: fat feet, they have no real shape, just blobby

2:rib under chest to low, pecs too high

3:crotch, seems to come across from hip bones, that should all sink in.

4:clavicle is missing, that should be a strong feature

5:tiny knee bones

...

[Nosslak]

There are a few things that look odd to me:

 

1: fat feet, they have no real shape, just blobby

Yeah, I know. When I posted the first render I said that I was going to fix it and I still intend to.

 

2:rib under chest to low, pecs too high

3:crotch, seems to come across from hip bones, that should all sink in.

4:clavicle is missing, that should be a strong feature

5:tiny knee bones

Fixed, fixed, fixed and fixed!

 

New render for y'all:

[RPGista]

Well, analysing Doom's zumbi models (which for the most part are pretty cool IMO), you can see that great care is taken to accuretely represent the face and hands (which is exactly whats missing from your WIP hehe), and as far as anatomy goes, even though you can sense some parts (extremeties mostly) have slightly exaggerated proportions, they are quite good in detailing the body decay on different levels, but still mantaining a generic look to them so they wont get too easily recognisable as a repeating model.

 

I think this is what Baddcog was talking about, regarding the body decay and the expression of the bones underneath:

 

 

 

 

Or in this case, the opposite hehe

 

[RPGista]

Things I think you could work on (though I understand your reasons from beginning from scratch, reinventing the human body is very hard to get right, I would still use accurate models as references, personally, its the same for drawing, for example):

 

The shoulders are too "glued" to the torso, there are muscles on the shoulders that really makes it stand out from the upper body where they connect, which you havent worked on yet, there should also be a direct connection to the chest muscles (easy to see on doom's models);

 

The same can be said of the trapezius and neck area, still needs to be defined and modeled;

 

From the 3/4 angle I cant be sure but it seems that the ribcage is wider at the top and slimmer at the botton when it should actually be the opposite (easy to see on the first picture);

 

I like the hips but the legs are not very well defined - they should probably be longer, have more solid and bigger knee joints, thinner ankles as compared to the knee joints, and the shin cannot curve inwards like that. Legs are not that difficult to understand as a solid once you get the hang of them, but you'll need to draw them profusely (or use references) if you want to get them right. Its a bit more complicated because its a decayed leg, you should probably start with a healthy one and then experiment, perhaps...

 

[Nosslak]

I don't think you really understand how I was planning to work on this. I was just planning to make a base-mesh (what you've seen so far) and then take that into ZBrush to sculpt some muscles onto him for real. The mesh I am currently working on is very simple and shouldn't have that much detail, it should basically only have the major shapes and some nice and even topology so that I can work with it in ZBrush. Here's how the mesh looks without smoothing:

When I'm done it'll hopefully have the same amount of muscle definition as my last character.

[Nosslak]

Should I make the zombies head attached to the body or should it be separate (changeable)? I think we've got both ATM. Also should they (body and head) share textures?

[Springheel]

Our current zombies have a head that is part of the mesh. It would be nice to have swappable heads, but it would be hard to hide the seam.

 

Here's a pic of our current zombies that might help, btw. The middle skin on the left is one of ours, so could theoretically be re-used if the uvmap fit.

[Tels]

Our current zombies have a head that is part of the mesh. It would be nice to have swappable heads, but it would be hard to hide the seam.

 

Can't we wrap a collar around the neck? (if its a dead prisoner) Or a thick rope (if it's a zombie that rose from a hung person)

[Springheel]

That could work, but not every zombie is going to be hung or a prisoner. Probably better to save swappable heads for zombies with clothes.

[Nosslak]

Posted this in the Untethered Dark Mod thread but I might as well post it here too:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tVxwZI0Bfmo

I'm sorry that it's so lowres, I just used the default settings for recorddemo and avidemo as it was just a quick test to see if I could get an animated mesh into TDM. Here's a better image:

He doesn't have any texture because I fixed a few things on him which broke my unwrap. I'll also try to get him to look a bit more dead with an open mouth.

 

How many polys can I use for him? Right now he clocks in at about 3100 polys and I don't think I can lower that number without sacrificing form/detail.

Edited March 27, 2012 by Nosslak