Release Date...

[oDDity]

Ok, then we'll include a sword on the lowest difficulty setting only.

[New Horizon]

I hate shooters.

 

It's honorable that you feel so passionately about your style of gameplay oDDity, almost religious...in fact it kind of scares me, but it's silly to assume we should rap the player over the back of the hand until they play "exactly" the way you think they should. It's a game, not a dictatorship.

[New Horizon]

Ok, then we'll include a sword on the lowest difficulty setting only.

What are you talking about fool. :lol: Not only will there be HUGE sword on EVERY difficulty setting but we will also include a magical gun that turns AI into beasts of wooness!!!

 

Love the new signature by the way. You are a man of double standards.

[oDDity]

I hate shooters.

 

It's honorable that you feel so passionately about your style of gameplay oDDity, almost religious...in fact it kind of scares me, but it's silly to assume we should rap the player over the back of the hand until they play "exactly" the way you think they should. It's a game, not a dictatorship.

Nonetheless, as I stated previously, games have to have rules and boundaries. We control the way the player operates by the very act of making the game.

Can the player use a flintlock pistol to shoot the guards?

No, because we don't give him one.

Can the player bring a couple of thugs with him to beat up the guards so he doesn't have to bother sneaking past them?

No, because we didn't give him that ability.

Can the player carry a sword to kill guards with? No, I don't think we should give the player that either. Why is that rule so bad compared to te previous two examples?

I simply wish to set the rules and boundaries in a slightly different place that everyone else.

[Springheel]

Why is this sounding like the issue is up for discussion? The decision on the sword was made a long time ago. Anyone who finds that offensive can edit it out of the mod themselves.

[Macsen]

The sword is a large phallic object to hide behind in frightening circumstances, so that you can convince others, and yourself, of your bravery and manliness.

[oDDity]

Why is this sounding like the issue is up for discussion? The decision on the sword was made a long time ago. Anyone who finds that offensive can edit it out of the mod themselves.

Well, this is one of the problems with secrecy. The public just dont like to accept decisions which have been taken behind closed doors for reason unknown to them.

And also, I like to have a good argument for the sake of it.

[Vadrosaul]

The public just dont like to accept decisions which have been taken behind closed doors for reason unknown to them.

 

Really, could've fooled me. eg, Good olde USA

[Hippo]

You guys should totally add the Sword Gattsu uses in this anime 'Berserk'.

 

I wonder if your thief can bypass a doorway with that...

(Great anime btw.)

 

Edit: added a better picture oh, and can't bother to start a new topic: can we get a direct link to these forums? It always throws me in to the Dark Mod page when refreshed. Pretty Please~~!

Edited February 1, 2005 by Hippo

[sparhawk]

There seems to be a confusion on Oddity's part. The sword is NOT for beating the AI it is for beating the doors to make noise or batter them down. In fact we never intended the sword to become a tool of killing. What an obscene thought that woud be. A melee combat weapon to have in Thief.

[Hippo]

I think we all saw trough Oddity's sarcasm.

I still want that bastard-sword. It could cut the hammerites in half.

[sparhawk]

Show me the mail from Oddity where you read that sarcasm and I show you a mail where you are wrong.

[Hippo]

I mean, he's just teasing people (I think) for his own fun. It's good to put people on their tows.

Oh and, if there're any beasts in your mod, I think a weapon of any sort would be highly appropriate to wield. I know I would even if it was just my Not So Witty Tongue... Ooh well, look at the time! Gotta go to sleep.

[oDDity]

There seems to be a confusion on Oddity's part. The sword is NOT for beating the AI it is for beating the doors to make noise or batter them down. In fact we never intended the sword to become a tool of killing. What an obscene thought that woud be. A melee combat weapon to have in Thief.

Yeah right, obsence for a thief to carry the sword for killing people, but ok for him to use it to batter down doors when he has lockpicks or can be arsed finding a key or just bater on them for fun to make a noise and wake everyone up.

.

Whatever way you cut it, a sword is about as much use to a thief as a condom machine is in the Vatican.

Of course we'll still include it anyway, because [irritating sarcastic whiny voice]LGS had one[/irritating sarcastic whiny voice] too many so-called thief fans enjoy rampaging around with it, becasue they just can't get out of the FPS mode gamers have been indoctrinated with over the years. So, considering I place FPS fans just slightly below orangutans in the evolutionary scale, I don't think we should be consdiering their needs in this game.

 

If you knew me better hippo, you'd also know I was Thief: Deadly Serious about no sword)

[Fingernail]

You know what, Lloyd? You do it!

 

(UK-only reference, Tv-ads)

[Renzatic]

Any good thief is gonna carry something he can use to protect himself with just in case the shit hits the fan. It's common sense, going thieving without one cuz you don't intend on getting caught is like saying you don't need a condom cuz you don't intend to knock your girlfriend up.

[oDDity]

I think you'll find the vast majority of burglars are not armed (excpet in the gun crazy USA obviously, where most kids go to school armed to the teeth)

Armed robbery is a MUCH greater offence than robbery, and you're more likely to be killed by whoever catches you if they see you are armed and a threat to them. This is why I don't understand a thief carrying offensive weapons like broadheads, landmines, daggers, swords etc. Much better to take non-offensive tools only. If you are caught, at least you're not going to be killed as a unarmed unthreatening intruder.

I don't agree that out thief would go armed with lethal weapons 'just in case' that's the same as saying he's quite happy to muder anyone who gets in his way. If you go around mudering people you're in a hell of a lot more shit, and are making life extremely difficult and dangerous for yourself.

Our thief, like most people, would rather be arrested than kill someone to get away. I think the thieves guild policy would be 'If you're not a good enough thief to avoid getting caught, don't bring shame on us by adding murder to your mistakes, and take your punishment like a man'

[Renzatic]

Right, but our thief lives in a day and age where burglars will end up just as likely to hang as a murderer, plus you have to consider that most guards will kill him on sight regardless of if he's armed or not. If he wants to ply his trade he'll have to accept the fact that he might be forced to kill on occasion just to save his own neck. The sword isn't a murders tool in this regard, it's a bit of extra insurance.

 

I think you'll find the vast majority of burglars are not armed (excpet in the gun crazy USA obviously, where most kids go to school armed to the teeth)

 

Yeah, I remember when the chess club brought in those AK-47's...THE FOOTBALL TEAM KNEW FEAR THAT DAY OH LET ME TELL YOU!

[Ishtvan]

Two things:

First, oDDity, I see your point about breaking & entering vs armed robbery charges in modern times. However, as Renzatic said, the rule of law was not so good in the world we're talking about. If you got caught breaking in to an isolated noble's manor, guards could kill you without consequence, or said noble could just as easily have you tortured to death as turn you in to the authorities.

 

Speaking of the authorities, in the Thief universe at least, they were not too kind to thieves. (anyone remember something like "thieves shall feast on the tongues of liars, who shall be fed the hands of thieves"). So even if you were turned over to the authorities, you'd probably end up tortured to death or worked to death in prison.

 

Using a sword to defend yourself as a last option looks more promising than throwing yourself on the mercy of the guards and judicial system of that world. Also, you don't have to kill a guard to get away, just injure him enough so he decides to stop fighting you.

 

Second, the thing that I liked most about the Thief series was multiple pathways. For example, several buildings had many points of entry. It was fun stalking around and trying to pick the best point of entry. So you had a lot of options, some worse than others (like the heavily guarded front door). I got satisfaction in knowing that I slunk around and found a good entrance point.

 

Applying oDDity's logic about sword use to that situation, we might as well not make the front door frobbable right, because our thief character is so good that he'd never consider going in there. We might as well only make only one entrance point for the player, because the character would obviously know what the best one is right?

 

Would I be as happy to find the entrance if it was just a linear map where I had to search for the one entrance that the mappers selected as the best one? No! That's linear gameplay. I like having choies, so that I can feel good about choosing the best entrance.

 

The same thing applies to the sword. I get personal satisfaction from choosing never to draw it, or to throw it away at the start of a map. It's fun when it's your choice (and the game also rewards you by not having the AI come down on your ass when you kill and make a lot of noise). It's not fun when you have no choice.

[Napalm]

I think the obious thing would be to have the sword. HOWEVER use it as a means of protecting when things get rough not a way to rampage. The easiest way to do this is code in basic defending, enough to be able to get away, however make it really difficult to actually kill the gaurds with it. And if theres more than one gaurd, your screwed. This makes it a useful tool, while still fitting into the style of gameplay.

[oDDity]

However, as Renzatic said, the rule of law was not so good in the world we're talking about.  If you got caught breaking in to an isolated noble's manor, guards could kill you without consequence, or said noble could just as easily have you tortured to death as turn you in to the authorities. 

Lol, whenever I try to argue against woo, I get the relpy that 'this isn't medieval Earth, this is a different universe etc'

and now you're trying to use the opposite argument 'yes, but back in those days thieves were treated as harshly as muderers, etc'

We can make up what ever judicial and societal laws we like for this universe.

 

 

Using a sword to defend yourself as a last option looks more promising than throwing yourself on the mercy of the guards and judicial system of that world.  Also, you don't have to kill a guard to get away, just injure him enough so he decides to stop fighting you.

 

Which would require greater swordsmanship than the guard you're fighting. To not only escape injury yourself against a better armoured opponent, but to be skillful enough not to deal him any fatal blows and just injure him enough so he'll quit.

Not to mention the fact a lot of the guards will be better armed than you as well.

So now you're suggesting our player have the skills of Zorro?

 

 

Applying oDDity's logic about sword use to that situation, we might as well not make the front door frobbable right, because our thief character is so good that he'd never consider going in there.  We might as well only make only one entrance point for the player, because the character would obviously know what the best one is right?

 

THat's not a logical progression from what I was saying at all. This is a stealth game, sneaking and searching for the best way to avoid AI is the entire point, limiting stealth opportunities would be pointless. On the other hand, limiting murdering opportunities in a game that is not about murder, is exactly what we should be doing.

 

Would I be as happy to find the entrance if it was just a linear map where I had to search for the one entrance that the mappers selected as the best one?  No!  That's linear gameplay.  I like having choies, so that I can feel good about choosing the best entrance.

 

The same thing applies to the sword.  I get personal satisfaction from choosing never to draw it, or to throw it away at the start of a map.  It's fun when it's your choice (and the game also rewards you by not having the AI come down on your ass when you kill and make a lot of noise).  It's not fun when you have no choice.

 

You're confusing level design with game mechanics.

Having limited numbers of paths in a map is bad level design, it's got nothing to do with gameplay decisions of what weaponry you're allowed to use.

It's just like chess - there are an almost infinite number of paths you can take to win a game, yet there are very strict rules governing the gameplay.

[god_is_my_goldfish]

I can't believe we're even having this discussion. If you don't like the sword don't use it!

Edited February 2, 2005 by god_is_my_goldfish

[Renzatic]

You need to think about how to make the game fun before you think about how to make the game more realistic. You might prefer the total lack of offensive weaponry, that's your style..you like it like that, but someone else might find an occasional use for pulling the sword out and stabbing someone in the face. You don't HAVE to use the sword, but we're giving people the option that want to.

 

And my reference wasn't to medieval earth, it was based totally off how we've envisioned the feel and atmosphere of the city. These people aren't kind, and getting caught in a nobles house means certain death...therefore the sword could be considered a tool for his assured survival when things go horribly wrong.

[New Horizon]

I think it's time to put this topic to rest.

[Vadrosaul]

If you don't like the sword idea, don't use it. Ever heard of not binding the key for it, or just practicing restraint. Obviously I hope you guys are leaning towards the combat design of Thief1/2, where as difficulty increased, the toughness of guards and general lack of your swords usefulness is reduced. I personally don't want a mod where a group of fanboys just up and decided to drastically alter Thiefs core mechanics because they thought I'd be cool, or more realistic, or some BS. To me removing the sword, or not giving us any melee weapon, is restricting player choice and diminishing game choices.