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Vert Contest Mission : The Rift by Baddcog : Aug 15, 2010


Baddcog

The Rift by Baddcog : VC2010  

57 members have voted

  1. 1. Gameplay: Enjoyment. Fun duration. Smooth flow, ect. Versus Bugs. Frustration, Boredom, framelag

  2. 2. Appearance: Vertical use, Visual pleasure, lighting, visual style, deduct bad texturing etc.

  3. 3. Story & Text: Story. Text. Briefing. Graphic storytelling



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@ id3839315

That one got put away for a good while, TDM did actually. I was wrapped up in maps for TF2 for awhile, playing L4D, etc..

 

But then I got the urge to Taff again, this contest had a month left so I figured what the 'ell. Played a bunch of newer missions, looked around Melan's works and shots Melan posted in the City ref thread and had to start a city mission. I'll be working on that alot more and the mansion in that thread will be tacked onto the city sections.

 

@ nbohr1more

The little work of mine that was in Heart was the beginning courtyard and towers, the rest was all Fidcal's. But it's not in any of those shots.

 

@ Fidcal

There's only one way out, back the way you came.

 

You can only climb out of the water by the ruins on the far side of the water, then arrow up to ledge on other side of ruins to window, then climb rock ledge and arrow up by the mushrooms (where you jumped down)

 

 

2 chests are pickable, no keys. secret treasure: all chests are unlocked.

 

 

@Legion

 

 

There's a note on the first guy in the rift (dead by lantern and wooden structure before hole with spiders)

 

yeah, originally the plan was for it to be darker, lantern only in the mines but testers didn't like it and were cranking their gamma. I had even added a minor ambient light in there but it wasn't enough.

 

I'll probably update at some point to try and improve the ambient balance between top and mines. Touch up loot in chest placement, etc...

But right now i wanna get on to my city map and am working on 1.03 release stuff.

 

 

Dark is the sway that mows like a harvest

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@LEGION: remember spoilers please. It spoils it for others who are reading through. If you don't know, spoiler tags are accessed via the 'Other Styles' drop down at top left of the full editor.

 

@Baddcogg: So is it safe for me to continue

on the other side of the moat? I mean, what was the meaning of looking into a pot? Am I supposed to do that first? And how?

 

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@LEGION: remember spoilers please.

 

Sorry Fidcal & others, completely forgot to add spoilercode, fixed it now.

 

 

about the waterarea:

 

Originally I fell down into the water while trying to get onto that rocks above the water. :) On the window I thought I would hurt myself when I jump down, but I didn´t saw the wood-plank either, only when I wanted to get back...

 

-> Crisis of Capitalism

-> 9/11 Truth

->

(hard stuff), more
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about the height feel:

I got hurt at the entrance of the rift, but after I figured out which way to take I never got hurt again. Except the hole in the Mines, but I fell in due to the darkness there, but the damage I took was fairly nothing, so I even enjoyed this! :)

 

The problem with the height is that:

 

* you don't "feel" the edge with your feet (it would be cool if maybe TDM had a feature where your movement is "stopped" a bit when you go over an edge, e.g. you must "push" against the edge to actually go over ever so slightly). That means it is dead easy to fall down a ledge just by walking alongside it and go 1 unit to the left. I had that several time when I was trying to "peer down". (Yeah, I probably should have used "leaning" more but old habits die hard :)

* even if you see the ledge and see down, it is almost impossible to judge beforehand whether you will take damage or not, and how much. Thats even ore the case when it is all the same light (ambient only), all the textures are dark, brown and rocky, and, most importantly, you are on a ramp, where each position has a different height.

 

Here is an image that shows crudely what I mean. In the first case the player can see the sudden drop, so can easily judge "I am gonna make it" or "Oops, that will splat". In the second case it is much harder to see for the player when he will take damage, and how much. (Not everyone can calculate geometric stuff in their head and knows the damage formula etc. :)

 

post-144-128206205102_thumb.png

 

I'd say (sorry badcogg!) that the second case is just (mildly) bad level design. Even the first case can be problematic when the "deeper" area uses a dark nondescript texture and the player can see "yeah it is deeper", but has no means of judging how deep it is actually. 1 unit? 10 units? 100 units?

 

The problem with taking damage there is that it leads to trial-and-error or immersion-breaking reloads - the player just doesn't know how much health he will need to go down to the bottom.

 

Speaking of this, I simply

 

 

dropped down from the mines into the water. Funny how the player can survive a fall from 100m into water :) (We might do something about that, tho?). Anyway, is it possible to go back up without having the rope arrow attached when you go down? I never tried it (noclipped out as I said), but I think the mission would not break if you forgot your rope?)

 

 

 

That brings me to the ambient light: Without the mines it could´ve used a little bit darker ambient. Especially the spider-area was too bright. The areas your lightgem says you´re in complete darkness it actually was very bright there and because I play usually without the lightgem (instead I 'use' the PlayerShadow as reference) I didn´t noticed that and felt forced to kill all the spiders. The spiders weren´t able to get to the area you came in there around that corner, so it was pretty ease to nail them with arrows or even slash them. They only jumped at the corner without getting forward.

But the mines are the reason to not decrease the ambient light (I assume the ambient light effects the whole map and cannot set individually for areas) because it was perfect the way it was. I was barely able to see the nearest walls (the lighted up zombie was a help) and that was just great and realistic, and as I said it was a pleasure to fall down blindly into that hole and got hurt(because it was only a very little hurt)! :)

 

I think the ambient location settings could have been used to great effect here :)

 

@Tels:

I guess this bug you suffered from is related to the shoulder-issue about the spiders where you shoulder them but the spider still lays before you. I think I too had once this issue where I dropped my spyglass, that rings a bell...

But than again, didn´t you said (in the bugtracker-discussion) that you very likely fixed this anyway and I assume you´re using the SVN-version were the fix is available. (I would like to have access to this too, the weapon-inventory-bug still annoys me :rolleyes: )

 

I tried to run the mission with the current SVN, but it gave me an error with "Joint "blah missing on skully" so I had to use v1.02 just like everyone else :)

 

As for the spider bug, I am not sure what discussion you refer to. I think we only fixed the "shoulderable" bug, but the "try to grab it and things go wonky" must be a new one.

 

Oh, and about the loot not frobable: Sometimes it´s really hard to get the loot highlighted, maybe a slower mouse-setting would help?

(Fidcals solution for the second crouch-height really serves as an improvement for me, because with this you are able to lean forward into chests while crouched)

 

Oh yeah, I had a particulary bad chest where I tried for like 10minutes to frob that one gold vase out of it, crouching, jumping, jump-crouching, leaning and what not and simple couldn't do it, not even with noclip...

 

Anyway, the mission is quite good and has a lot of potential, its a shame that some parts where so rushes. I agree with the others who said

 

 

 

the temple is the most interesting part to me. Why is it there? Could I explore it more? A few temple pits and traps? and so on. I could have spend a few more hours down there :)

 

 

"The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man." -- George Bernard Shaw (1856 - 1950)

 

"Remember: If the game lets you do it, it's not cheating." -- Xarax

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@Tels:

it would be cool if maybe TDM had a feature where your movement is "stopped" a bit when you go over an edge, e.g. you must "push" against the edge to actually go over ever so slightly

Yes, Aida mentioned this in the Improvement-topic and it really would be a large improvement. And it´s realistic when it would come to action only, when you´re creeping, like as in darkness, you test to 'feel' if there is a hole ahead or not...

(I hope the system wouldn´t react to steps, though)

 

I had the same thought about the high jump into the water without getting hurt! (but I wanted to post it in the improvement-thread...)

 

And about the spiderbug, I only guess that it´s related somehow, maybe? :unsure:

-> Crisis of Capitalism

-> 9/11 Truth

->

(hard stuff), more
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I get what you're saying about the drops. But I think it's more bad player decision than bad design if you are taking damage.

 

It's a very organic area, so imo having very flat distinct levels makes it look 'very non-organic'. And you did say you should probably have used leaned... bad habits. Authors can only use the tools they are given, they can't correct everything for various bad player habits. It's not like I removed leaning or careful judgements. Those are player tools for players to use as needed.

 

there was no where that I forced the player to take a drop that was 'questionable'. Every drop is reason to spot and take no damage imo. If you want to rush and try a bigger drop expect damage.

 

In all of the various missions I have missed my jumps, jump to rope, etc... But have also made them all. So I can't really say it was bad design, just bad jumps on my part.

 

I almost used ambient settings, but trying to cram this out in a month, took basic approach on everything.

 

I think the jump into water is perfectly survivable and I don't see why we'd change that. Deep water has always been safe in Thief, and in realy life I have jumped off cliffs almost that high and taken no damage...

-------

i also accounted for player reaching bottom with no ropes.

 

Hence

 

 

the rope arrow under ruins front gate - reachable from either side (not on expert, an expert should be able to get out with only one, and an expert should get down there with at least one), a rope arrow in the first chest inside ruins.

 

 

----

I actually DON'T like the Tomb Raider styled ..ooomp, ledge edge. It feels very forced to me and dumbed down. I don't want to be able to push and twitch against a ledge edge. I want to fall off if I'm being clumsy.

I even see situations on ledges in city missions (like the one i'm working on) that this would be detrimental and that ledges would have to be dumbed down, obvious and sidewalk width to be able to traverse them.

 

I want to toe line scary ledges to sneak into places. Not walk across a sidewalk on the side of a building.

Dark is the sway that mows like a harvest

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@Tels:

 

Yes, Aida mentioned this in the Improvement-topic and it really would be a large improvement. And it´s realistic when it would come to action only, when you´re creeping, like as in darkness, you test to 'feel' if there is a hole ahead or not...

(I hope the system wouldn´t react to steps, though)

 

Yeah, could work, you creep and you never go over an edge, to go over you must either:

 

* run, or walk, or crouch-walk or crouch-run, OR "press shift + creep" (if that is possible)

 

We should make a new thread for this to see if others like the idea.

 

I had the same thought about the high jump into the water without getting hurt! (but I wanted to post it in the improvement-thread...)

 

Please do :)

 

And about the spiderbug, I only guess that it´s related somehow, maybe? :unsure:

 

Not really, it just messed up my mission because after that I was no longer being able to use weapons or most other stuff :)

"The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man." -- George Bernard Shaw (1856 - 1950)

 

"Remember: If the game lets you do it, it's not cheating." -- Xarax

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This is funny about the edge perception thing because I have more difficulty than most making such judgements. But in this case I was OK. Maybe it's because I know I don't trust my first impression in risky, eye-confusing situations so I took a lot of care working around before descending. I do a lot of leaning in different directions and moving until I get a better sense of depth perception.

 

About the

mines

I thought the walls were superb. One thing though is too much just ambient light so it fell flat. I would have just put one long low light glancing along a wall to give variety in each corridor. It doesn't even need to make sense - just a stray bit of light from somewhere to give contrast and shadow.

 

This clue completely throws me out from what you were saying Baddcogg

" All I have to do is climb on one pot here in the main entry, look down inside it, and I will be ready to go beyond the gate." - I took that to mean you look in a pot and find a lever or it automatically opens the gate just by looking (which is possible.) Which doesn't make sense I know but some FMs don't. ;) So maybe I've reached the limit in which case I want more! MORE! Who said to limit these contest FMs to 1280 anyway? :laugh:

 

 

 

Oh yeah, one more thing the start streets were very convincing. I felt sure there was a complete city just round the corner and I was reluctant to go down without having a look around first....

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Oh yeah, one more thing the start streets were very convincing. I felt sure there was a complete city just round the corner and I was reluctant to go down without having a look around first....

 

Yeah, the streets are very convincing, but in my case the rift was in the objectives, so I got down there first, then after aone hour up again and completely forgot the city.. somehow I got the impression one can't go there anyway :D Seems I missed quite a bit of the level!

"The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man." -- George Bernard Shaw (1856 - 1950)

 

"Remember: If the game lets you do it, it's not cheating." -- Xarax

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Yeah, I see your point there Fidcal. that was put in after beta just to spice it up a little, so I never got beta feedback on that. I should've probably tried to get one more round of beta but I was ready to be done.

 

 

I mentioned the gate just because that looked like the next logical place to go for him. (of course his corpse is on the floor by a broken pot, I just meant that more as ironic humor, great explorer dieing by doing something stupid).

I honestly wanted to make the ruins larger initially, but after I figured out my water area half my horizontal space was done...and I was getting tired...

 

 

@fraten

 

 

You gotta climb, jump, mantle

 

Dark is the sway that mows like a harvest

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I spoke to son on the "grab a spider bug", it is probably more the mousewheel-weapon bug :( I just got it in the map from Fieldmedic too. That bug is pretty bad, you can't do anything with your left mouse button anymore, no weapon attacks, no throwing of stuff. Ugh :(

"The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man." -- George Bernard Shaw (1856 - 1950)

 

"Remember: If the game lets you do it, it's not cheating." -- Xarax

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What in the fuck, man.

 

That was awesome!

 

More to say later, too amped up to even vote right now* ...but that was really great.

 

Thanks, Baddcog.

 

*

I only got 3301 of the 4411 and still feel like I kicked ass -- which is the way a mission should leave you feeeling, eh? :D

 

Thought I borked myself with a lack of 1 too little rope arrow(s)... hate, I reiterate, undead, but still loved this mission... saw some great stuff... talk about the spirit of the vertical!... I gotta stop raving...

 

 

ETA: and the poll! Egg Salad! :laugh:

Edited by aidakeeley

"A Rhapsody Of Feigned And Ill-Invented Nonsense" - Thomas Aikenhead, On Theology, ca. 1696

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Estimated Time of Arrival?

 

I thought it was fun :) Some minor gripes are player sliding on some stuff, the bottom part was tricky to figure out where to go and it was a little confusing where you could and couldn't go.

 

I enjoyed it though you hid the loot really well. My first time through I only got about 1,200 but I didn't realize there was a

builder church on the other end of the start

. The mood for the first part was awesome and the beginning is beautiful except for a few texture stretches. Great FPS through out!

 

Thanks for the map :) I've only just started to play FMs and I'm loving them :D

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ETA = "Edited to add". Sort of a way of indicating a postscript after coming back to edit the post rather than create a new one; that kind of thing.

 

ETA: I didn't need to E to A this because as you can see I didn't E this post so this is a fake ETA

"A Rhapsody Of Feigned And Ill-Invented Nonsense" - Thomas Aikenhead, On Theology, ca. 1696

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Went back and found a way up. I had to boost gamma way up to find some wood to rope to. Anyway, found enough loot on the way back I'd missed and got back in my room with all objectives checked - but didn't get Mission Complete. Oh well. I count that as a win.

 

Great mission. Just wanted more!

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My votes:

 

 

 

Gameplay vs Problems: I voted Near Perfect.

 

I think Baddcog really used all the elements in TDM as part of the gameplay experience.

 

This is one FM where what you purchase at the beginning has significant consequences on the way the missing plays. This is probably a controversial usage but if there are virtually no consequences to item selection then why have one? I am probably biased towards forgiving this "roll of the dice" by being an old-school arcade game fan. Modern players may feel this an unfair burden and breaks immersion by practically unavoidable trial and error runs.

 

If the lighting in the "Rift" is poor I must take some responsibility I think. In my initial beta run I found that there was not enough suspense near the spiders and zombies. I recommended maybe having them come up out of holes, etc. (After I left my comments, I began thinking that the zombie area should have some dormant bodies to unsettle the player as well...). I was happily surprised about how much more creepy the cave was in the release version but I think that the creepy mood came at the expense of removing light that made the area more playable. I didn't really notice the consequences until others chimed in and I suspect that Baddcog may also have overlooked this aspect as he was fully familiar with the safe paths. So perhaps this is a case where a second wave, alpha and beta, would have been beneficial.

 

Visuals: I voted Near Perfect

 

From the baked-in light bounce in the initial room (near the dinner table), to the gorgeous city-scape, to the underground Castle-Crypt. Everything was made with such a great eye for proportion and space. Baddcog seems to have a natural knack for positioning even the least amount of geometry in ways that are appealing to the eye. Even though I wasn't a big fan of the look of the cave walls, the stretch patterns for the textures even had a characteristic art direction to them... that is, rather than some sloppy plopped-on appearance they looked more like something you'd see in a modern art museum. If he was given more time I'm sure Baddcog could polish these caves into the jewel-like appearance he achieved in the city above but I cant say that anything look bad or sub-par at all. Near Perfect.

 

Story: I voted Tolerable

 

This is a hard one. I think I recall Baddcog mentioning that this would be a basic smash-n-grab when he entered the contest. So from that criteria the story is "I'm a thief. Time to grab loot". Then he creates this wonderful sequence of scenarios that seem to scream out for further explanation. I was torn between judging his story from the merits of his own description of the mission-type verses judging the story quality compared against the other entrants. I came to the conclusion that we all prefer more interesting background stories for our FM's no matter how basic the mission and decided to vote for his story in comparison to the other contestants.

 

I'm not sure how Baddcog took Sotha's brutal ( :laugh: ) criticism of his story but if his feelings aren't too sore about the matter I would actually like to see what Sotha could contribute to a discussion with Baddcog about the back-story. I also see that Baddcog was trying to fill in the blanks a little in his TTLG post about the mission so there may still be a chance for that to be amended a bit with external references.

 

 

 

Edited by nbohr1more

Please visit TDM's IndieDB site and help promote the mod:

 

http://www.indiedb.com/mods/the-dark-mod

 

(Yeah, shameless promotion... but traffic is traffic folks...)

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