Jump to content
The Dark Mod Forums

Ok, revisiting a project....


CorwinWeber

Recommended Posts

A while back I was looking for a way to make DarkRadiant usable for editing Source games as well as idtech games. I've been poking around and I'm still interested, but I'm not exactly sure where to start. I guess what I'm looking for as a starting point is to find out how DR knows where to look for a game's assets? Is it the .game file? Is it one of the libraries? Combination of both?

 

It has to be more complicated than just editing the doom3.game file and renaming the result, I'm just not sure how much more complicated it needs to be....

 

** edit **

 

** sigh ** I just realized I posted this in tech support rather than editor's guild.... please feel free to move the post if that's appropriate. My bad.

Edited by CorwinWeber
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Q: Can DarkRadiant be used for Half-Life, Quake 3, or other games as well (apart from Doom 3)?

 

A: No. DarkRadiant has been specialised for the Doom 3 engine only (and the Dark Mod). It's possible to use it for other Doom 3 modifications though, it's usually enough to specify the fs_game setting in the preferences. Quake 4 Editing should be possible, but it's not tested towards that game.

 

 

I believe that DR uses the Doom 3 executable to parse for assets. If that was not the case, I believe DR would have been granted the ability for parse the whole OS file-system "explorer-style" long ago.

 

I see that GTKRadiant supports HL1 but not HL2, I believe that is pretty telling about how far Source has verged from it's Quake roots...

 

Just a guess... :unsure:

Please visit TDM's IndieDB site and help promote the mod:

 

http://www.indiedb.com/mods/the-dark-mod

 

(Yeah, shameless promotion... but traffic is traffic folks...)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I believe that DR uses the Doom 3 executable to parse for assets. If that was not the case, I believe DR would have been granted the ability for parse the whole OS file-system "explorer-style" long ago.

 

I see that GTKRadiant supports HL1 but not HL2, I believe that is pretty telling about how far Source has verged from it's Quake roots...

 

Just a guess... :unsure:

 

The issue with that is that apparently there's a way to make GTKRadiant work with HL2.... but the instructions all seem to have been posted years ago on webhosts that are now defunct....

 

My impression is that Source's structure isn't different enough to make the two completely incompatible, just incompatible by default. It's not that it won't work at all, it's that it won't work without tinkering with it. Ok, I despise Hammer enough that I'm willing to tinker. :)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Can you create a dummy doom 3 directory with definition files and assets and "crank it up"?

 

(If so, I will be installing DR on my work PC for my Sunday "slow days" :))

Please visit TDM's IndieDB site and help promote the mod:

 

http://www.indiedb.com/mods/the-dark-mod

 

(Yeah, shameless promotion... but traffic is traffic folks...)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I believe DR would have been granted the ability for parse the whole OS file-system "explorer-style" long ago.

That's pretty much what DR does. At the start or in the preferences, you can specify where your game or your mod can be found, or simply your assets. DR checks all files inside that directory and adds them to the virtual filesystem, including files inside pk4 files. The VFS is then used to access the files.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

That's pretty much what DR does. At the start or in the preferences, you can specify where your game or your mod can be found, or simply your assets. DR checks all files inside that directory and adds them to the virtual filesystem, including files inside pk4 files. The VFS is then used to access the files.

 

Ok, so.... for example making a copy of the doom3.game file and editing it appropriately would be a start.... there would be more tho, I know. It would have to get into the GCF files to get the assets. Now, that's possible.... there are libraries available to do it. I'm just not sure whether that could be done outside of DR itself or not. Maybe a python plugin to call the right functions?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I don't know anything about HL2 map formats or archive files, but I'm sure that Python alone won't do the trick here. It may be possible to write a set of plugins for reading map formats and archive files - but additional C++ coding is needed for sure.

 

Also, DarkRadiant's editing features are specialised to handle D3 brushes, D3 patches and D3 lights. I don't know whether any of these are compatible with HL2 or not.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I don't know anything about HL2 map formats or archive files, but I'm sure that Python alone won't do the trick here. It may be possible to write a set of plugins for reading map formats and archive files - but additional C++ coding is needed for sure.

 

Also, DarkRadiant's editing features are specialised to handle D3 brushes, D3 patches and D3 lights. I don't know whether any of these are compatible with HL2 or not.

 

Brushes yes, patches no, lights.... sorta. The patch function at least just wouldn't work. So far as I know, Source just doesn't use them at all. Lights could potentially get a bit funky... or not. There are dynamic lights in Source, but they don't work the way idtech dynamic lights do. That would mostly be a compiler issue tho.... not specifically something the editor would need to worry about much.

 

Python alone won't do the trick, no.... but there's a set of libraries and other functions (all GPL) called hllib. GCFScape uses them to extract files from the GCF's, and a python add on could call the same function to give the editor access to the assets. It's the sort of thing you don't have to do with idtech4 because a pk4 file is basically just a renamed zip archive.... so it will just open with no further fuss.

 

And on an unrelated note.... I find it odd that my browser's spellcheck chokes on idtech.... but not on idtech4.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hammer uses displacements instead of patches. I'm sure at some base hiearchy they are somewhat compatible, but how they are used/created/manipulated is different.

 

Patches are manipulated by dragging verts and are made by using one face of a brush.

Displacements are manipulated by dragging verts and/or painting vert info. Hopefully we'll get vert paint in the future. But they can also be created from any/all sides of a brush (another feature we'll hopefully get).

 

Patch cylinders are made through the menu. Displacement cylinders are made by using the 4 outside faces of a brush, converting to displacement, then sub-dividing. So I don't know how well it would transfer from DR to HL2.

 

Lights in Doom3 are square with shaders to change shape, make them round.

Lights in Hammer or sperical, can't have textures (I don't believe) and have falloff settings.

 

Hammer compiles lightmaps and takes major impacts on performance from any single lightsource that is dynamic. Doom3 doesn't compile lightmaps and does pretty well with dynamic lights.

 

So from my experience you could deffinately use DR for brush work. patch/displacement thing is questionable. Lights are probably a no-go.

Anything in hiearchies(placing objects, AI, etc...), scripts, entities... probably none will work. unless of course someone can write plugins for all Hammer game related stuff.

 

Anyway, Hammer and DR aren't that different to work in. I deffinately like displacments better than patches, but DR is customized with Thief gameplay in mind. So most of the best stuff in DR isn't even useable for Hammer games. (ojective editor, readable editor, S&R system...)

Then there are model formats and whatnot. Whether or not DR can read SMD (?) files, etc..

 

But other than short-cuts I honestly can't see a reason to use DR over Hammer for Valve games. The two editors are very similar in basics, if you don't like one you probably won't like the other. I like them both but have no reason to use Hammer anymore.

Dark is the sway that mows like a harvest

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hammer uses displacements instead of patches. I'm sure at some base hiearchy they are somewhat compatible, but how they are used/created/manipulated is different.

 

Patches are manipulated by dragging verts and are made by using one face of a brush.

Displacements are manipulated by dragging verts and/or painting vert info. Hopefully we'll get vert paint in the future. But they can also be created from any/all sides of a brush (another feature we'll hopefully get).

 

Patch cylinders are made through the menu. Displacement cylinders are made by using the 4 outside faces of a brush, converting to displacement, then sub-dividing. So I don't know how well it would transfer from DR to HL2.

 

Lights in Doom3 are square with shaders to change shape, make them round.

Lights in Hammer or sperical, can't have textures (I don't believe) and have falloff settings.

 

Hammer compiles lightmaps and takes major impacts on performance from any single lightsource that is dynamic. Doom3 doesn't compile lightmaps and does pretty well with dynamic lights.

 

So from my experience you could deffinately use DR for brush work. patch/displacement thing is questionable. Lights are probably a no-go.

Anything in hiearchies(placing objects, AI, etc...), scripts, entities... probably none will work. unless of course someone can write plugins for all Hammer game related stuff.

 

Anyway, Hammer and DR aren't that different to work in. I deffinately like displacments better than patches, but DR is customized with Thief gameplay in mind. So most of the best stuff in DR isn't even useable for Hammer games. (ojective editor, readable editor, S&R system...)

Then there are model formats and whatnot. Whether or not DR can read SMD (?) files, etc..

 

But other than short-cuts I honestly can't see a reason to use DR over Hammer for Valve games. The two editors are very similar in basics, if you don't like one you probably won't like the other. I like them both but have no reason to use Hammer anymore.

 

Actually I love DR and loathe Hammer. It hasn't had an interface update since about 1998. It's clumsy as hell. You have to be in the 'right mode' to do anything and it takes four or five steps to do something that takes 'click and drag' in any Radiant based editor. I finally managed to tinker with the settings to make the font in the program large enough that I could actually read it instead of it being so tiny, but if I have a part of the interface that's just in my way.... my choice is to completely remove it, (if I can find that option) or just deal with it. No moving it to an area that's out of the way where I can still use it if I need it. It's not officially supported by Valve and doesn't seem to be actively being worked on. Personally I'm not sure how anybody makes levels in Hammer. Tiny viewport, no way to scroll that viewport incrementally, (even clicking the scrollbars sends your perspective over by about a third of the screen) and basically none of the aspects of interface design that people have figured out over the last decade or so.

 

Radiant in general (and DR in particular) is an elegant program. I can actually do what I want to do in Radiant without having to fight my tools every step of the way. DR adds more options into that, and does so in the same general way. The models menu? Works. Textures list? Works and I can actually read the name of the texture. Changing my perspective so that I can actually see what I'm working on? Works. None of this is true with Hammer.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Actually I love DR and loathe Hammer. It hasn't had an interface update since about 1998. It's clumsy as hell. You have to be in the 'right mode' to do anything and it takes four or five steps to do something that takes 'click and drag' in any Radiant based editor. I finally managed to tinker with the settings to make the font in the program large enough that I could actually read it instead of it being so tiny, but if I have a part of the interface that's just in my way.... my choice is to completely remove it, (if I can find that option) or just deal with it. No moving it to an area that's out of the way where I can still use it if I need it. It's not officially supported by Valve and doesn't seem to be actively being worked on. Personally I'm not sure how anybody makes levels in Hammer. Tiny viewport, no way to scroll that viewport incrementally, (even clicking the scrollbars sends your perspective over by about a third of the screen) and basically none of the aspects of interface design that people have figured out over the last decade or so.

 

Radiant in general (and DR in particular) is an elegant program. I can actually do what I want to do in Radiant without having to fight my tools every step of the way. DR adds more options into that, and does so in the same general way. The models menu? Works. Textures list? Works and I can actually read the name of the texture. Changing my perspective so that I can actually see what I'm working on? Works. None of this is true with Hammer.

 

Hm, have you ever considered mapping for TDM, then? You could use our lovely editor and create great maps! :)

"The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man." -- George Bernard Shaw (1856 - 1950)

 

"Remember: If the game lets you do it, it's not cheating." -- Xarax

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hm, have you ever considered mapping for TDM, then? You could use our lovely editor and create great maps! :)

 

Actually TDM's genre just doesn't do it for me. I have used DR for editing regular Doom 3 and would love to use it for Half Life 2 and Portal editing.

 

I wasn't a huge fan of Thief and I'm essentially burned out on fantasy altogether. For what TDM is, it looks great. I can appreciate that aspect. Just not my thing. The editor is fantastic tho.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

huh, I went from Dromed (the beast editor) to Morrowind (placing objects and painting ground verts) to DR to Hammer. Learned it pretty quickly and made 5 TF2 maps.

My only issue between Hammer and DR was keyboard shortcuts. I had planned to customize DR to match Hammer but stopped using Hammer and just learned the shortcuts again.

 

I'm not sure what you mean about the viewports though. I have Hammer, 3dsMax and DR all set-up with a 3d view and 3 orthos and all are very similar. And all windows can be resized at anytime.

 

I do agree though, Radiant is nice and probably has more options to taylor it to your needs. I'm just not sure how some things will mesh between editors.

 

Another one I thought of is textures. You can set a luxel density in Hammer for lightmaps. It would probably just be deault size 16 if you textured in Radiant and converted... Just not sure.

Dark is the sway that mows like a harvest

Link to comment
Share on other sites

huh, I went from Dromed (the beast editor) to Morrowind (placing objects and painting ground verts) to DR to Hammer. Learned it pretty quickly and made 5 TF2 maps.

My only issue between Hammer and DR was keyboard shortcuts. I had planned to customize DR to match Hammer but stopped using Hammer and just learned the shortcuts again.

 

I'm not sure what you mean about the viewports though. I have Hammer, 3dsMax and DR all set-up with a 3d view and 3 orthos and all are very similar. And all windows can be resized at anytime.

 

I do agree though, Radiant is nice and probably has more options to taylor it to your needs. I'm just not sure how some things will mesh between editors.

 

Another one I thought of is textures. You can set a luxel density in Hammer for lightmaps. It would probably just be deault size 16 if you textured in Radiant and converted... Just not sure.

 

Meh, I can cope with taking a mostly finished map and loading it into Hammer for some finishing work if I absolutely have to. The viewports thing.... the best way I can describe it is that the whole program feels like I'm working in 1024x768, but with none of the benefits like readable fonts. If I'm lucky I can see one room at a time in the viewports and using the 3d window is kludgy as hell. In DR? No problem. I have one window for most of my editing and can quickly switch between top down - side - front views, and one window for 3d. They also feel like I'm actually working in 1280x1024.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

  • Recent Status Updates

    • Petike the Taffer

      I've finally managed to log in to The Dark Mod Wiki. I'm back in the saddle and before the holidays start in full, I'll be adding a few new FM articles and doing other updates. Written in Stone is already done.
      · 1 reply
    • nbohr1more

      TDM 15th Anniversary Contest is now active! Please declare your participation: https://forums.thedarkmod.com/index.php?/topic/22413-the-dark-mod-15th-anniversary-contest-entry-thread/
       
      · 0 replies
    • JackFarmer

      @TheUnbeholden
      You cannot receive PMs. Could you please be so kind and check your mailbox if it is full (or maybe you switched off the function)?
      · 1 reply
    • OrbWeaver

      I like the new frob highlight but it would nice if it was less "flickery" while moving over objects (especially barred metal doors).
      · 4 replies
    • nbohr1more

      Please vote in the 15th Anniversary Contest Theme Poll
       
      · 0 replies
×
×
  • Create New...