Is there a correct way to knock out a guard?

[Springheel]

and add a crosshair to that breaking immersion reminding us every second "hey pal you're in a GAME!!" and I will stick to playing good ol' T2.

 

You and me both.

[Springheel]

When you walk behind a sitting AI for example. You move forward untill your movement is blocked by a chair.

 

Don't get so close. You need to be about one arm's length back from your target.

[Fidcal]

Exactly. Stand further back. If blackjacking was set up so you had to be close it would be near impossible. Why? Because Dark Mod AI, unlike Thief, are touch-sensitive - they can feel you if you bump them. So if you had to move in close to do a blackjack you would mostly bump them and alert them. Even in a chair they might lean back and touch you.

[Sotha]

Maybe to make it easier, we should have the computer automatically raise your blackjack when you're in range, so you just have to press the button to complete the swing. Thief players would love that.

 

Or maybe like this:

• The player has to press and hold the mouse button to raise the blackjack
• The player needs to release the mouse button to make the hit
• When the player aims at the sweet spot in the AI' head, there would be a subtle animation cue in the blackjack-held-high animation to signal the player that now you will get a KO if you release the mouse button.

Visual sweet spot animation suggestions:

• The jackjack is raised just a few centimeters higher as if the player would prepare to hit with maximum force.
• When the player is not aiming the sweet spot, the player hand would be in a relaxed state, wrist a bit sideways with the blackjack. When the player is aiming at the sweet spot, the player would raise his wrist upwards from the sideways position.
• Maybe the player hand would tighten its grip from the blackjack. Fingers twitch and wrap around the blackjack more tightly?

I'd say the main thing is to let the player know somehow that now the KO will work. With the visual feedback, people will learn faster and easier the intricacies of blackjacking, without the need for simplifying the system. Those who don't like to keep their hand risen can still do quick blackjackings by just tapping the mouse to make the hit. The visual cue would also make blackjacking interesting, exciting and careful business, approaching the guard hand risen while waiting for the perfect guaranteed successful KO. New players can sneak up to a guard, and move the mouse and target different areas in AI's head to find the KO spot and learn it so that future KO's come faster and easier.

[New Horizon]

Or maybe like this:

• The player has to press and hold the mouse button to raise the blackjack
• The player needs to release the mouse button to make the hit
• When the player aims at the sweet spot in the AI' head, there would be a subtle animation cue in the blackjack-held-high animation to signal the player that now you will get a KO if you release the mouse button.

Visual sweet spot animation suggestions:

• The jackjack is raised just a few centimeters higher as if the player would prepare to hit with maximum force.
• When the player is not aiming the sweet spot, the player hand would be in a relaxed state, wrist a bit sideways with the blackjack. When the player is aiming at the sweet spot, the player would raise his wrist upwards from the sideways position.
• Maybe the player hand would tighten its grip from the blackjack. Fingers twitch and wrap around the blackjack more tightly?

I'd say the main thing is to let the player know somehow that now the KO will work. With the visual feedback, people will learn faster and easier the intricacies of blackjacking, without the need for simplifying the system. Those who don't like to keep their hand risen can still do quick blackjackings by just tapping the mouse to make the hit. The visual cue would also make blackjacking interesting, exciting and careful business, approaching the guard hand risen while waiting for the perfect guaranteed successful KO. New players can sneak up to a guard, and move the mouse and target different areas in AI's head to find the KO spot and learn it so that future KO's come faster and easier.

 

 

I don't think you'll see anything this complicated in the game. We've discovered a small inconsistency in the current system that may be causing some of the confusion though.

 

The visual cue that a city watch guard is alert and non-black jackable is that they have their sword out. The problem is that they're becoming immune one stage before the sword is drawn. This is mainly for audio alerts. When an AI accumulates several audio alerts, they go from idle, to suspicious, to 'search' and then agitated search. They pull out their sword in 'agitated search' mode, but are actually becoming immune in 'search' the mode prior. Eventually they ramp back down to 'search' and sheath their sword, but remain immune until they ramp down one more level.

 

Should be a simple fix as we'll just have to ensure that the immunity doesn't kick in until the actual agitated search mode. Should help give players the proper feedback.

 

This is only for the helmeted city watch. Non-helmeted guards don't become immune.

[Berny]

"When the player aims at the sweet spot in the AI' head, there would be a subtle animation cue in the blackjack-held-high animation to signal the player that now you will get a KO if you release the mouse button."

 

This sounds like Thief 3 (I hate the way T3 used the black jack)

 

 

[Aprilsister]

TDM really shouldn't dumbed down to Console game practices.

 

I like the period at the end of that statement.

:thumbsup:

I concur.

FFSYes!

!

Bang tidy bang on bang a drum bang la desh

EOF

Lest We Forget

'Nuff said.

+1

This.

Say no moo-uh.

PTTLCDASWTGY

[stumpy]

thief 4 will probably come with crosshair and more, like a dagger and no blackjack.

[Arcturus]

All this silly talk about Thief 3 doesn't change the fact that blackjacking in TDM can be annoying (to some people).

 

Don't get so close. You need to be about one arm's length back from your target.

That's not intuitive. And without some kind of stereo vision it's hard to judge if you're too close.

 

If blackjacking was set up so you had to be close it would be near impossible.

I didn't say I want it to be possible to blackjack only from a short distance. I want it to be possible to do it also when you're very close to the NPC.

 

Dark Mod AI, unlike Thief, are touch-sensitive - they can feel you if you bump them.

That's my problem when I alert AI by bumping on them. Why do you want however to punish the player for being stealthy enough to get really close to the NPC and not alert it? When you're close enough and you can see the NPC's head in the center of the screen it should always be possible to blackjack them. In my opinion, of course.

[Aprilsister]

...the NPC's head in the center of the screen it should always be possible to blackjack them. In my opinion, of course.

 

EXCEPT.

 

You need to blackjack them by hitting them at the base of the neck.

 

Not. by. hitting. them. in. the. head.

[jaxa]

Did you read what NH posted? It sounds like the main problem to me. After all on Expert, just matching the guard's speed enough to get behind them probably causes them to become "slightly alert", and then the bug kicks in and they are blackjack immune.

[Arcturus]

EXCEPT.

 

You need to blackjack them by hitting them at the base of the neck.

 

Not. by. hitting. them. in. the. head.

 

It. is. completely. non. -. intuitive.

 

It's like saying that you need to shoot in the outer circle in stead of the center of the target.

[New Horizon]

Did you read what NH posted? It sounds like the main problem to me. After all on Expert, just matching the guard's speed enough to get behind them probably causes them to become "slightly alert", and then the bug kicks in and they are blackjack immune.

 

Please remember though....the ONLY AI that are blackjack immune when 'alert' are guards with helmets. The black jack area on non-helmeted AI simply becomes smaller when they're alert. This does mean though that the non-helmeted AI's black jack area is becoming smaller one stage before it should as well. I have a feeling that fixing this will eliminate a lot of the frustration people are having.

 

EXCEPT.

 

You need to blackjack them by hitting them at the base of the neck.

 

Not. by. hitting. them. in. the. head.

 

When they are on high alert...prior to that, non-helmeted AI can be struck pretty much all the way around their head.

 

Anyway, we'll see what this bug fix brings.

[Arcturus]

When they are on high alert...prior to that, non-helmeted AI can be struck pretty much all the way around their head.

Thanks for clarifying that. Even advocates of the current system are confused.

[Springheel]

That's not intuitive. And without some kind of stereo vision it's hard to judge if you're too close.

 

If you watch the animation, the blackjack is swung with the arm straight. You need the blackjack to hit the head, so you have to be an arm's length away. That seems fairly intuitive to me.

 

You could argue that you shouldn't be limited to swinging with your arm straight, but I see that as just a gameplay concession, no different than being limited to picking up objects in the center of the screen.

[Aprilsister]

I have absolutely no problem understanding why it is intuitive to strike the AI at the base of the neck. This is how martial arts work. You don't go around karate chopping someone in the skull. You do as I have repeatedly repeated.

 

And you know what?

 

It works.

 

I have a lot of fun and success KOing those I want to KO.

 

It works if I'm swiftly ambushing a patrol or quietly, sneaking up on an idler... swish... thwack... slump...

 

You want to know how to properly KO a guard? I've explained.

You want to argue ad nauseum that you need crosshairs to line up blows to the skull and/or helmet? Go ahead.

 

Traditionally (for me) I don't even particularly like to blackjack because Thief was the game that made the practice ridiculous. TDM, on the other hand, makes it fun.

[Scope]

I agree it can be a little fiddly... took a lot of trial and error for me to figure out when a guard could be "BJ'd" (ooOOERR Matron).

 

I only discovered through trial and error that you can actually walk behind a guard on a normal floor without him turning around... I used to crouch walk behind him and stand and sprint at the last moment.. it used to give mixed results as you can imagine and was rather down to luck!

 

What I tend to do, is get close enough to them while they are patroling, then stand and walk behind- charge the blackjack and raise it up just so its above his head around centre. So long as the guard hasn't become alerted to you i.e (you stood on a noisy metal grid or loud floor) - its pretty much a sure thing and its a knock out.

 

I do agree that blackjacking is a little taxing on helmeted guards... if they come to investigate a noise (sword not yet drawn), you should still be able to knock them out IMO. But then again... if helmeted guards are too easy, then wheres the challenge?

 

Im sure its something they have thought about in balance testing.

[Springheel]

I do agree that blackjacking is a little taxing on helmeted guards... if they come to investigate a noise (sword not yet drawn), you should still be able to knock them out IMO

 

Yes, they should only be immune once their sword is out. There is a bug that makes them immune when they're alerted enough to search, even if their sword is not out, however. That will be fixed in 1.04. Hopefully that will help.

[Scope]

Yes, they should only be immune once their sword is out. There is a bug that makes them immune when they're alerted enough to search, even if their sword is not out, however. That will be fixed in 1.04. Hopefully that will help.

 

Well thats quite cool

 

Will make "chalice of kings" a bit easier, as there is a helmeted guard you come across at the start that cannot be sneaked past or avoided... (as far as I know..) blackjacking him involves luring him into the shadows.. then he can only be KO'ed when he stops searching to return to his post giving you 4-5 seconds to get close enough to land the blackjack before he turns back to face you!

 

I will miss the strategy but not the frustration

Edited February 19, 2011 by Scope