Player Notes: Feedback

[Fidcal]

I'm now implementing player notes in my FM so thought I'd post what I'm doing for feedback and also might link to this for info from my FM thread and/or readme when it's done...

 

Firstly, these notes are optional but work by default on all difficulties. I had thought of disabling them on Expert but then you might like to play on Expert but at least have the notes in case you do get stuck.

 

To disable them you have to create/add to autoexec.cfg in doom3/base a line:

seta mvr_show_playernotes 0

 

That can be left so if used in any future FMs the notes will never show.

 

The notes have their own inventory category so you can if you wish set a hot key to cycle around them exclusively. You can of course, drop any you don't want anymore. (mm... maybe I should make them suspicious?

 

Here is an example of what you might see. You pick up a readable with clues in it. Imagine this might be two or three pages and hard to read, especially if English is not your first language. Also consider many players hate readables. If so, now you don't need to read them! All you need do is look at them once then close them and you won't miss anything but story:

 

 

 

You close the readable and if there are any clues in it then your player character automatically makes notes and puts them in the inventory where they become the top item immediately. The inventory name itself is a reminder and simple clue so you can cycle through your notes to remind yourself what to do:

 

 

 

Each player note consists of three pages, very brief in big bold clear font.

 

The first is a simple hint; an obvious extraction from the readable. If you read the readable carefully and it was reasonably writen then you must know this anyway. If you didn't read the readable carefully and didn't know this then you probably need to know it anyway right? So if you have player notes enabled anyway there should be no spoiler if you glance at the first page - it's more of a reminder of what you already know....

 

 

 

Page 2 is more of a nudge if you are unsure and want to know more. Normally you won't look at it until you are stuck and don't want to exit and post on a forum and wait for an answer! Or, if you prefer, you can just look at all the note's pages if you don't like mysteries and want to know exactly what to do.

 

 

 

Page 3 is more explicit and should make it clear what to do. Problem here (for the mapper) is the notes are meant to be written by the player so must simulate a smart deduction from the clues available and cannot assume the player has been everywhere. So it can't say the loot chest is most likely behind the garden shed if the player might not yet have gone to the garden. But the notes can make broad suggestions even if they sound like unsubstantiated assumptions by the player character....

 

 

Mappers writing these notes would have to make sure Page 3 must absolutely make clear beyond doubt what to do somehow so in the example you practically fall over the chest if you go to the far dark corner of the garden.

 

Be interesting to see what the beta testers make of these, love or hate them? But since they are optional then just turn them off.

[Sotha]

I'm now implementing player notes in my FM so thought I'd post what I'm doing for feedback and also might link to this for info from my FM thread and/or readme when it's done...

 

Some thoughts I had while reading this:

• It is nice to have inside-game clue system, however it is quite clumsy to disable them by autoexec-file modification. Would it be better if the EASY difficulty had the clues and all the other difficulties did not and there would not be need to enable/disable the feature separately. If the player needs help (clues) they should play the mission on EASY: clear, easy and consistent. No need to edit autoexec-files. If the player fears/hates getting stuck, he should play on easy first anyways.
• Are you using the clue system for mission-critical-things only or will minor "tea spoon missing" miniquests have clues as well?
• The clue system is really dependant how the clues are written. If they're written poorly, it will fail utterly.

love or hate them? But since they are optional then just turn them off.

 

It needs to be tested, of course, but my initial thought is that I probably would not like them. But it depends on the mission. If the mission is full of progress halting difficult problems, then I think it would be better to have clues than to get utterly stuck. Also remember that you cannot see all the situations in which the player gets stuck, so it might be that all your trouble for writing the clues did not help: the player gets stuck even with all the clues OR maybe he misses something which is not covered by the clue system.

 

My personal preference is a mission with smooth flow without the need for such clue system. Challenging sneaking around in an interesting location with interesting plot is enough. I see it as poor map design if the flow grinds to a halt every now and then: no need to employ grand mysteries which require a clue system. OR the mission might have an OPTIONAL grand mystery to entice players who want brain cracking. And this, of course, without any clue-system but with basic clue readables.

 

I am pretty sure I'll never use such a clue system, but I'll wait eagerly how you pull this through.

[Aprilsister]

I will definitely not use such a clue system; but I don't begrudge those that might whether they play on any difficulty level.

 

If it can be implemented in such a way that I can ignore it completely then I will be happy as pie from this moment until the moment I need to set up my autoexec; or tick the ignore box; or whatever single and conclusive step I need to take is ready so that I can ignore it completely as if it never existed -- between now and then I won't wait for it at all.

 

I do commend you, Fidcal, for your efforts to improve things for players! This one is not for me, but still it is yet another something I believe you can be proud of...

[dumpkin]

 I think it's a great idea, but why bother disabling them? You don't have to read them and you can drop them, right?They should not automatically become top inventory item, though.  

 

 

[Fidcal]

Thanks for input Sotha.

 

Enabling: There may be other reasons to play on Expert - yet still want the option to be able to get help in-game. The disabling is a one-off thing. Of course, ideally mapper options would show on the objectives screen as I've proposed long ago. Another alternative which was done in at least one major Thief FM was a black room at start with lever options.

 

Mission-critical: probably. My main concern is the player not getting frustrated.

 

Written-poorly = failure?: Yes, but that's true of the whole FM I guess.

 

I understand your preference for smooth flow but imo it would be disastrous if all FMs were made that way. No keys unless they are highly visible (and who can guarantee the player won't miss them?) only obvious Thief steps; no climbables like ivy or drainpipes in case the player misses them; no high open windows ditto; no unusual new stuff etc etc. Not for me and not for a lot of other players. I just wouldn't make any more FMs for sure. A lot of people have enjoyed the smoother FMs but a lot have also enjoyed the more complex ones like Heart and Nightwatch - but often got stuck despite everything being in the clues. In almost every case when I answer requests for help in the forums I've given the help and added 'the clue is in...'. The whole purpose of these notes is the holy grail to satisfy everyone and supplement the clues.

 

Extra thoughts:

 

If the player has already got or done the thing in the clue before reading it then why would he write it? I may need to find a way to not show a particular note.

[Sotha]

Thanks for input Sotha.

 

You welcome!

 

I understand your preference for smooth flow but imo it would be disastrous if all FMs were made that way.

 

Aye, variety is the key. I was just listing my personal preferences and views. It is important to have a plethora of different kinds so there is something for everyone. And in that your efforts to help people who have difficulties to read readables are commendable.

 

 

If the player has already got or done the thing in the clue before reading it then why would he write it? I may need to find a way to not show a particular note.

 

Have a trigger_once to remove the entity which gives the clue, when player reaches the object of the clue before the clue itself?

[ocn]

Go for it! Sounds like a nice optional feature to have. I mean, a readable needs to be just as carefully crafted as the rest of the mission. A lot of readables just aren't written very well and I tend to skip reading them if they don't catch my attention in the first paragraph.

[Fidcal]

@ocn: Yes, I do too or tend to skim a readable if it is a long and winding road with no obvious clue. I know lots of such readables where I would love to have a popup saying "nothing for you here!" The truth is there are lots of FMs I've played where I would just love to be able to turn to some player notes for help.

 

@Sotha: Yes, but needs a bit more. Taking the example, say the player finds the loot chest in the garden then later finds the clue note. It might need a facing trigger to make sure the player faced the chest (he might not open it or even be able to) and the map would need designing so it is certain he could actually see it; tricky in the dark, would need to have it in the clear away from obscuring distracting objects. So the trigger would have to delete the script calling entity not the player note or else it would delete the player note in the player's inventory if he found that first. But I think most cases would be simpler than that.

[Springheel]

My personal preference is a mission with smooth flow without the need for such clue system. Challenging sneaking around in an interesting location with interesting plot is enough.

 

Personally, I agree. Anyone can miss something and get stuck by some fluke (but then a clue system probably wouldn't help in that case anyway, unless you have clues for literally every conceivable circumstance). But if lots of players are consistently getting stuck, then the clues are probably too hard/sparse. In that case, players can go to the forum (mappers could even post a "clue page" in spoilers in the first page of their mission thread). That way mappers get feedback about how often players get stuck and where.

 

I don't know, to me this idea seems only a few steps away from the TDS blue-footprints telling you were to go next.

[ocn]

Perhaps there is a conflicting definition of "clue" here. It doesen't have to be a big flashing neon sign saying "Frob Me".

[Ishtvan]

I like the idea in general, and could see myself using this occasionally. It's definitely less immersion breaking than exiting out and going on to a forum when you're stuck! However, an easy way to turn it off would be key. I'd not want to be spoiled even by knowing that there IS a player clue in a particular readable. Maybe that could be another option: Do collect the notes, but turn off any sort of "note added" notification unless the player goes and looks for them (e.g., by opening a single "player notebook" readable, described below). That way they can draw their own conclusions unless they really get stuck.

 

As for each note being a separate inventory readable: I can see why you'd want that to have the three levels of hints / pages put together for one clue. However, I think the pain of having more stuff to cycle through may outweigh that consideration. I'd probably prefer to have them all in one readable to avoid the extra cycling. That makes it a little harder to organize the clues, but perhaps they could be numbered or titled, and the stronger hints would be in a later section of the readable, but in the same order and maintaining the same labels/numbers. The level-of-hint sections could also be separated by a one page title, so you don't accidentally scroll into them.

 

For example : Section 1. Suggestions [Next Page] A. Glove of the Scarlet Pimerpnel [text], B. Who Spiked the Mustard? [text], [Next Page], Section 2. Strong Suspicions, [Next Page], A. Glove of the Scarlet Pimpernel [text with stronger hint], B. Who Spiked the Mustard? [stronger hint]

 

We may have to write some specialty code to show things in the readable on multiple pages in the order that the player finds them, but I think it would probably be worth it to avoid having 10 extra notes to scroll through. Accessing them all through a single readable also makes it easy to do the "add to notes, but do not notify the player" option, if the player wants to remain unspoiled until they're really stuck.

[Springheel]

Rather than some fancy new system, couldn't this same effect be easily achieved by mappers by just adding extra pages to readables? Every inventory readable could have a blank page (so you know what the end is if you don't want the clues) and then after that could be three extra pages with different clue levels. Those that don't want the clues would stop at the blank page. Those that don't want to bother with the readable can scroll right through to the last page and read the blatant spoiler.

 

 

That way there's no extra coding and no extra inventory items.

[stumpy]

I thought this might be someway of giving the player background information about certain in world things that the thief your playing would know about but the player themselves would not. eg You come across a thief from the silverfish thieves guild, thats all the player would know, but the thief you play would know the the silverfish theives guild only opperate out of the fish factory on the eastside and that they deal with smuggling valubles in fish. And a background information note like this would appear in the player notes inventory.

[jaxa]

Although it would probably require more work on the part of mappers, I have always loved the Mission X in-game notes system. All notes are contained in a single inventory item, your note book, and doesn't terribly spoil or hand hold, for example:

 

 

You are trying to find a particular room to throw a dust bomb at the door to mark it. You can find 6 clues throughout the mission that are scrawled in your notes. You use all or a few of these clues together to determine which door to dust bomb:

 

 

 

1. Rooms with women;

2. Smaller room visible from back stairs; a room off one of the N halls

3. Blond hair, blue eyes, room visible from Mahogany Hall

4. Sketch and name, Patty

5. Loud ticking in the room

6. Painting of Patty; person in sketch with blond hair, blue eyes

 

http://www.thief-the...issionXWalk.htm

 

 

 

It also lists minor tasks (not objectives) you need to complete, etc., and strikes through things you have completed.

 

"In-game notes and hints. At many points during the game the player may petition their fellow agents for hints on how to complete the current objective. Depending on the difficulty, these hints range from direct explanations to vague nudges. These hints are permanently recorded in your in-game notes, along with useful information about the factions and setting." - http://www.digital-n...fall.com/MX.htm

Edited December 17, 2010 by jaxa

[Fidcal]

@Stumpy: Yes,the method could be used in that way. It's a fairly simple setup that any mapper could use to add info.

 

@Isthvan: AFAIK It's not technically possible at the moment to add text dynamically to existing readables and so have one large player notes document and it's not likely to happen in the code before my FM is released. It also means the player might stumble upon notes that they do not want to see. For instance they might only ever need help with one thing among ten. Separate notes separates the information and organizes it like files in folders. You only enter the folder and look at the files you are interested in. But yes, it does clutter the inventory. This is what prompted me to start the poll thread about scrolling only categories or within a category. The My Notes category you would ignore until and unless stuck. You would simply never see them at all unless you wanted to. The category itself would be like a document through which you could scroll to select a chapter.

 

@Springheel: I like the idea of adding the notes at the end of existing readables with a blank page in between. It is even easy to use a different font gui. That is interesting - one could use the sheet gui even at the end of books and scrolls so the background art would change as though the player had flipped through the book and was reading his own notes at the back.

 

I'll wait and see what the total response is and if > 50% oppose this extra help then I could at least make the default cvar 'no notes' so the player has to opt-in rather than opt out.

[Fidcal]

@Jaxa: yes, Mission X was good in that respect - though I sometimes found not all the info I wanted preserving was kept in the notes. But anyway, the principle was good.

[Fidcal]

Another idea just occurred to me. Just have two difficulty levels: Normal and Expert. So then I could have:

 

Normal with player notes

Expert with player notes

Expert without player notes

[ocn]

While we're on the subject of clues...

 

I was thinking that I at some point want to add a rather extensive readable with a couple of clues in it. And by clues I mean things you'd have to ponder a bit. But the player wouldn't actually know on which pages the clues are written at first, because that is revealed through other discoveries. So, is it possible to somehow visually bookmark certain pages of a readable once a criteria is met?

[Fidcal]

All kinds of things are possible in the code but let's assume you are working with what we have now.

 

Difficult. Define 'bookmark'. I'm guessing here you don't mean an actual bookmark so the player can press a hotkey and go straight to Page 33? But you mean 'mark the page visually' in some way? For instance to draw a line around some words much like you might circle an advert in a newspaper? If so, then this is possible but limited.

 

For two clues that might need marking in any order you would need 4 copies of the readable gui: one with no clues marked; one with the first marked; one with the second; and one with them both. Three clues starts to get unmanageable; you need 6 copies for clues A, B, C: 0, A, AB, AC, BC, ABC

 

The actual marking is on the background art.

 

Of course you then need some clever triggering and scripting to provide the player with the correct one at the right time!

[ocn]

All kinds of things are possible in the code but let's assume you are working with what we have now.

 

Difficult. Define 'bookmark'. I'm guessing here you don't mean an actual bookmark so the player can press a hotkey and go straight to Page 33? But you mean 'mark the page visually' in some way? For instance to draw a line around some words much like you might circle an advert in a newspaper? If so, then this is possible but limited.

 

For two clues that might need marking in any order you would need 4 copies of the readable gui: one with no clues marked; one with the first marked; one with the second; and one with them both. Three clues starts to get unmanageable; you need 6 copies for clues A, B, C: 0, A, AB, AC, BC, ABC

 

The actual marking is on the background art.

 

Of course you then need some clever triggering and scripting to provide the player with the correct one at the right time!

 

I'm thinking something like:

 

If player has overheard a specific conversation or read a certain letter, then a certain book is switched with another that has different background art or contain only the pages that show the interesting bits. Maybe with a text message or voice-over saying "Let's go straight to the interesting part." I don't know, something like that.

[Fidcal]

Yes, that's do-able. A simple script can switch things in the inventory.

[ocn]

And would it also be do-able to add a subtle voice over saying: "Hmm..." on a specific page, thus notifying the player that there's a clue here somewhere?

[Fidcal]

Yes, if you can find a suitable one in the oggs we already have or make a new one. You might find a freeware one. You'd need to go to the wiki to find out the file formats etc. It might need a script to play the sound as from the player. If you get to that point then I could have a look.

[ocn]

... If you get to that point then I could have a look.

 

I'd appreciate that, thank you.

[rich_is_bored]

Is it still possible to record demos? That would be the ideal solution. Just record a demo of playing through the mission and bundle it with the map.