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Strangling/suffocating


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I dont know if they've done this in any stealth games like thief, hitman, or splinter cell, as I havn't played any of those games (except Hitman) For at least 3-5 years now. I know that you could suffocate in hitman contracts, except that you needed to find an object like a pillow, and the target needed to be sleeping, plus I only managed to find all that in one mission. But what I was thinking, is that the thief could sneak up from behind a guard and just strangle a guard with his bare hands (not all cartoony simpsons style strangling, im talking about like, judjitsu style strangle where you wrap one arm around the neck, and use the other arm behind the head... well you should know what im talking about, if you don't, just look up jujitsu or judo choke holds on google or something). I mean, i think it'd be a great addition, because, well, I think it would add more variety to the way you took down your enemies. Anyway, what do you guys think about it?

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For the special case of someone sleeping and smothering them with a pillow: This could be done with scripting (although to make it look good you'd probably need your own animation/cinematic scene).

 

With regard to applying a choke hold to a standard guard and expecting them to go down without making a lot of noise: I don't think that's very likely.

 

I'm not an expert or anything, but from memory I think the shortest quoted time it takes to choke someone out is around 5 seconds (forgot if it was blood choke/wind choke/both, whichever's faster). So imagine a standing guard, wearing sword and armour, stomping and flailing around for 5 seconds trying like hell to throw a thief off of his back/throat before he goes down. That doesn't sound very quiet to me, especially compared to an instant-ko blow to the head.

 

[edit - Also, the choke hold is hardly a sure thing. If the guard is stronger than the thief, it's less likely that the thief will be able to hold it against resistance. Also, there are unarmed combat techniques to escape choke-holds as they're being applied. If there weren't, jiujitsu sparring matches would be pretty short. :) Compare this to the blackjack: There's not much a guard can do about getting whacked in the back of the head without any warning... IRL they might be dazed and not go down.. if so, hit 'em again :)

 

Of course, anyone is welcome to add their own weapons/animations to the base toolkit that we're making.]

Edited by Ishtvan
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I think that you should go and play Splinter Cell if you want this kind of takedown.

 

I understand that some people want less ghosting, more violence, but Thief has always been a bastion of stealth, not assassination (moreso 1 and 2, but still. . .) .

 

Dilution is a bad thing for the purists.

I want your brain... to make his heart... beat faster.

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Well, he could always break the guys neck (like twist it to the side or whatever they do in all those movies and games)... I mean, this is a game remember, not real life, although some games are more fun when a ton of realism is added, I think it would be better if there was a more variety of ways to kill the target from behind.

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That's not really what we're after. If our thief wanted to go around murdering people from behind, he already has plenty of ways to do it. But that's not the kind of gameplay our mod encourages.

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blackjack=stealth

 

blackjack all the way.... Splinter Cell and Hitman are entirely different genres of gaming. The thief's main focus isn't murder, it's getting in and out with the goods without being detected. Once we stray from this formula we lose the character of the Thief series.

 

If you ahve never played Thief, go and get Thief:TDP... the original started it all and hasn't been topped (IMO). I reloaded Thief:TDP the other day and have been playing it with fresh new eyes and ears. One word comes to mind.... PERFECTION! I cannot believe just how perfect the overall experience was in this old game. It's amazingly immersive and the cutscenes and storyline are second to almost none.

 

Once you've played (and subsequently gotten addicted to) Thief:TDP your opinions of what the game should have/should be will, more than likely, drastically change. Try it, then come up with more ideas.... :)

"Without music to decorate it, time is just a bunch of boring production deadlines or dates by which bills must be paid."- Frank Zappa

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I hear Splinter Cell 3 is going to let you throw people off cliffs, slit their throat, and, I'm sure, get your jollies by wantonly murdering people in other hillarious ways. So just wait for that if you want a third person murder simulator.

 

That's not to say that no one can ever make an FM where the goal is to assassinate someone. We just don't think it's very professional to be going around killing everyone and their sister on the way to your target. (even in Hitman, you got rewarded for ghosting the map and killing only your target)

 

I don't think we'll be taking time to add in any additional, stylized "cinematic stealth kills" to break up the monotony of murdering guards. You've already got plenty of options with the thief tools if you really want to kill someone: backstab, arrow in the neck, and, my personal favorite, blackjack 'em and dump them in a bathtub.

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I hear Splinter Cell 3 is going to let you throw people off cliffs, slit their throat, and, I'm sure, get your jollies by wantonly murdering people in other hillarious ways. So just wait for that if you want a third person murder simulator.

 

That's not to say that no one can ever make an FM where the goal is to assassinate someone. We just don't think it's very professional to be going around killing everyone and their sister on the way to your target. (even in Hitman, you got rewarded for ghosting the map and killing only your target)

 

I don't think we'll be taking time to add in any additional, stylized "cinematic stealth kills" to break up the monotony of murdering guards. You've already got plenty of options with the thief tools if you really want to kill someone: backstab, arrow in the neck, and, my personal favorite, blackjack 'em and dump them in a bathtub.

:blink:

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look i dunno. It doesnt sound like a good idea. Not to mention that with the atmostphere of thief or the darkmod, and thier medieval/victorian feel, this thief would most likely never have learned any sort of martial arts at all - so would lack the training to use such a choke effectively. And yes hed probably not be very strong. AND these guys have armour, likely with neck and chin protection, so itd be pretty hard to apply anyway.

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Guest Guest_Venus

It would be cool but not necessary. BTW takes longer than 5 secs to choke someone... I know, I was strangled.. n I can tell u, its alot longer than 5 seconds... at about 10 seconds, I figured I was dead... by 15, I was getting very woozy, n shortly after that, I began seeing stuff... then he let go...

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I think the bottom line, more than a sideways arguement about the effectiveness of certain combat manuevers or whether a thief knows martial arts or whether Splinter Cell 3 will be cool or not, is that the Dark Mod should ( and as far as i can see, does ) hold faithfully to the Thief legacy; the point being that any addititions or omissions should be made with thought firmly placed in mind: "Is it Thief?"

 

Whether or not blackjacks are stealthy, or are more effective, is irrelevant. The relevant matter is whether or not blackjacks are "Thief". And they are. So...blackjacks it is.

 

I had a question for the devs some time ago about whether they could implement going prone. They all gave there opinions on why it wouldn't work, and although I still think it would be "cool" to have the option, the bottom line is that it isn't "Thief". Since then, the litmus test of any question I have for the devs is "is it thief?".

 

No matter how cool I may think some idea I have is or isn't, i'm looking forward to this mod because it will (or should) feel like Thief 3 didn't....like Thief. That's really all anyone should demand from the devs, not whether the Mod's protagonist can create a reasonable facsimile of Sam Fisher or Agent 47 in medievil times.

 

Hylix.

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Venus, I was using the 5 second quote as the least possible time anyone's ever said (this number comes from guys that are convinced that JJ is the best martial art ever who are giving this number, so they are probably exagerrating :) ). I'm sorry to hear you were strangled. The time to KO also depends on whether they are cutting off air flow or blood flow or both, and I'm sure depends on a bunch of other stuff we can't even imagine. I think the classic RNC (rear naked choke) is a blood choke, but I'm not sure.

 

Also, I'm not saying I'm personally looking forward to Splinter Cell 3. The argument was put out that because there are no good "stealth killing" games coming out soon, we should add these features in the Dark Mod. First of all I agree that's not Thief. Second, I mentioned Splinter Cell 3 is planned with more killing options than the first 2, so people waiting for another stealth killing game can keep waiting for that one. :)

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Wow, I just lost all respect I may have had for Splintercell 3 after watching the trailers. The first two games at least had a hint of realism with the shooting and takedowns, but those trailers show some of the most unrealistic crap I've ever seen. Features include: doing a shoulder roll in the same direction you were moving to escape BULLETS, killing someone with a single punch to the face or knee to the abdomen, lifting someone of a similar size completely off the ground while in an invented hang from your feet (go out and try that), and, oh yes, when a choke hold is applied, enemies don't struggle at all, they just tense up and then quietly die after 2 seconds (no wonder people think it's possible when they see that crap all the time in movies/games like this). Clancy should be ashamed to put his name on this product for realism issues alone.

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Guest Guest_Rottenberry

The Damn thing wont let me reply while logged in again. Well I for one havnt lost respect for splinter cell 3. I mean, games are supposed to have a bit of unrealism in them. I mean, if everything was exactly like real life it wouldnt be too much fun. Sam would die in 1-3 shots. Or just 1 shot in the head. Would that be fun, because its real? And I dont think hes killing the guys with a punch to the face I think hes knocking them out. But I mean, wouldn't it be annoying if everything was like real life and every single person you killed let out a huge ass scream before they died so that everybody in the building would charge at you? I wouldn't consider that fun... I'd get annoyed. I like when theres a bit of unrealism in games. Games are funner when characters can do the un-imaginable.

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To each their own I guess. I like a lot of realism. You could die from a couple shots or one shot to the head in Max Payne, and also all of Tom Clancy's Rainbow Six series, and I don't think that made those a bad game. If you've read a Clancy book you know the man goes out of his way to do research on how things realistically operate. I was happy to see some of this attention to realistic detail reflected in Rainbow Six, and disappointed at its lack in Splinter Cell.

Edited by Ishtvan
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I prefer less realism overall, it's why I'm such a big fan of The Woo. Realistic games can be fun, but games like Thief should be allowed to bend the rules a bit in my opinion.

 

And I absolutely hated Splinter Cell. Not because it wasn't as realistic as it could've been, but because it was basically a giant obstacle course mixed with a guessing game and wasn't fun at all. Multiplayer was a kick in the ass though.

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Realism is a tool of gameplay. How much or how little you add, depends on how you want the game to play.

There's no rules like "more real = less fun". The whole fun of simulator games is to be as realistic as possible. Too little realism would be bad.

Or "less real = less fun". Arcade style games aren't realistic, but they give a good blast of fun, quickly, no need to set a lot of time aside to get into them. Too much realism would be bad.

 

And yeah, supporting Ishtvan's comment, one of my favorite games is Ghost Recon, one of those squad based combat sims. In that, you DO die in one or two hits, if you don't die in the first couple, you're usually so injured you can't really move well. You have the same chances of dieing as the enemy.

 

What this means is that your advantages against the enemy are now depending on your planning, tactics, squad organisation, communication, and better equipment (as a team like Ghost Recon does in real life), not "more life" and "stupid AI" as it is in standard shoot-em-ups like Doom or Quake.

 

...wouldn't it be annoying if everything was like real life and every single person you killed let out a huge ass scream before they died so that everybody in the building would charge at you?...

 

I can't beleive you said that. That is what happens in Thief, and is the whole point of choosing the blackjack over the dagger/sword.

Edited by Domarius
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