Johannes' box

[Johannes Burock]

Here's an example of Sotha's vaulted ceiling:

 

http://modetwo.net/d...post__p__222893

 

As you can see, the proportions of the supports are a little thinner compared to the scene. It has a high-fidelity ornate look but also seems to contrast against the detail level elsewhere in the mission. I'm sure there are more extreme examples but the concept is, for many if not most mappers, the architectural detail level varies wildly from item to item and location to location. So you will have scenes where a beautiful staircase is next to a blocking wall fixture (etc).

 

Your screens seem to show that every element is given about the same amount of detail. This lends a certain appealing aesthetic consistency. It looks like you've down-sampled the whole map from one that was consistently high-poly across the board to a lower resolution version.

 

It might be stifling for some mappers but I kinda think it would be cool to somehow gauge the performance of various detail levels and have a contest where all the architecture in a map has to have this many triangles per doom unit (etc).

 

It's pretty cool that this ability to spread out the detail-level evenly is a natural part of your artistic style.

 

 

 

1. i also build such small supportbeams in some testmaps:

 

 

but as an engineer i say thats not usefull...so no one build it in this way...an so its not realistic...

like the old link http://de.academic.ru/pictures/dewiki/67/Chillon_gotisches_kellergewolbe.jpg also in the middleages they build more substantial.

 

2. evrywere the same grade of detail...:

 

in most games ( and ive played very often in the past) i never have seen a well detailed pard direct next to a non detailed one...there is ever a visible border between them...a wall a river an so on...also in cities a ghetto in rio is next to a skyscrabber but no time a mixed form...thats a result of condition. Ok thats a bigger example but also if my flat gets untidy its a permanent action. normaly one room is untidy, then the door and the corridor is clear. I never have one room which is tidy on the one side and clean at the other.

And you have seen the higklights...some barts between are not SO detailed...

[Johannes Burock]

Wow Only thing is missing a few more dirt stains, a maybe bit of uneven floor (which looks perfect level to me?) and you got a real winner here.

 

 

so a new idea for the ground:

 

[Springheel]

Did you model that, or is it actually one of our textures??

[Tels]

so a new idea for the ground:

 

 

Hm, no, that isn't what I meant. The stones do look a bit overdone, if they weremuch flatter, (but not exactly flat) it would be better.

 

But what I meant that the floor overall is even - it should be more like raised 5cm in one corner, and lowered 3cm in in some other. Basically like an old street, where the street itself is not level, tho the individual stones next to each other are almost all flat. Should I draw picture or did you understand what I meant?

[Johannes Burock]

@ springheel

 

every stone is stone for its own...an then natural stonetex on it

 

@ tels

 

ok, i know what you mean, i look what i can do. The stones i made a bit bit flater...its an "older" screen

 

@ all

 

is the look of the ground generally ok or....?

Edited January 28, 2011 by Johannes Burock

[7upMan]

 

@ all

 

is the look of the ground generally ok or....?

 

Are you joking? This is t3h Awesomeness!!! Really, I love the detail. Soon you'll be rivaling Sotha for stunning visuals!

[Aprilsister]

I'm with 7up. I actually like the old floor better, but but that's only because I saw it first and instantly liked it so... the point being you obviously have the talent for creating great and interesting looking missions. Now, if you will, understand that if you ask for critiques you're going to get an endless deluge... AAMOF, if you don't ask for critiques (and you simply post some screenshots) you're going to get an endless deluge... so please proceed to the finishesmentization of the FM!

 

What with the excellent visual previews and all... we all are waiting with baited( ) breath, to experience the story and gameplay.

[Sotha]

Johannes. Do listen feedback, but try to develop a style that pleases you the most. Then stick to that what you enjoy and create things that you deem nice. If you correct your work according to feedback forever, you will never get a scene done.

 

In my opinion the scene was ultra-immersive and beautiful even without the bumpy floor.

 

Are you joking? This is t3h Awesomeness!!! Really, I love the detail. Soon you'll be rivaling Sotha for stunning visuals!

 

Um.. Excuse me, but I am already beaten, mangled, bruised, sliced, stabbed, burned, blown to bits and dissolved in aqua regia just to be sure, in terms of visuals. Johannes seems to have an impeccable eye for details: with visuals, he is wrestling with Melan and Bikerdude.

 

I admit I am a bit the worrying kind of person, but I truly carry a concern on Johannes' works performance. Can you tell me what r_showprimitives tells for that small scene (basically a floor, ceiling and two walls) in the basement? Remember, you're going to have high poly AI's walking around and locations are sometimes surprisingly challenging to visportallize.

 

Keep up the good work, your style is truly amazing, but I really hope you won't succumb into so much details that your map cannot accommodate performance-wise enough AI's to make the mission interesting.

[Baddcog]

I think there are a lot of great styles around here. Everyone does things differently and it's great to have Johannes posting work that is definitely

different than everybody else.

 

These early missions are going to feed inspiration to everyone so the more styles the better.

---------

 

There's always room for feedback, but it's one of those things you gotta take with a grain of salt. Sometimes advice is good, other times not, sometimes it's good but just doesn't fit...

I thought the first shot of that cellar was beautiful and even with a 'flat' floor was perfect. I wouldn't have changed it a bit. The individual stones are cool too, but I think overdone depth wise, looks like it would be a very hard floor to walk on.

[Bikerdude]

@ springheel

every stone is stone for its own...an then natural stonetex on it

 

Hmm that is gonna eat FPS if its in a big enough room...

 

Johannes, can you do me a favour and turn on the FPS counter so we can see what FPS your getting? also what resolution are you running TDM at..?

 

To get the console up in TDM press the following keys (ctrl+alt+`) the ` key on an english keyboard is next to the "1" key just above the TAB key.

 

Than with the console up type com_showfps 1 to turn on the FPS counter and com_showfps 0 to turn it off.

Edited January 28, 2011 by Bikerdude

[Springheel]

Johannes. Do listen feedback, but try to develop a style that pleases you the most. Then stick to that what you enjoy and create things that you deem nice. If you correct your work according to feedback forever, you will never get a scene done.

 

In my opinion the scene was ultra-immersive and beautiful even without the bumpy floor.

 

Agreed on both counts.

[Johannes Burock]

Hmm that is gonna eat FPS if its in a big enough room...

 

Johannes, can you do me a favour and turn on the FPS counter so we can see what FPS your getting? also what resolution are you running TDM at..?

 

To get the console up in TDM press the following keys (ctrl+alt+`) the ` key on an english keyboard is next to the "1" key just above the TAB key.

 

Than with the console up type com_showfps 1 to turn on the FPS counter and com_showfps 0 to turn it off.

 

i have the fps counter on already but often cut the pic to the important parts...

 

 

 

so let me tell smthing to this

 

1. when i make a shot my fps get down ca. 20 fps...so the fps is normaly about 40-50

2. there are some improvements on the beam which get down many (!) tris but i didnt this until now

3. my system isnt very fast-> 2 years laptop 2x2400 MHz and 3 GB Ram (32 Bit Win 7) but a 1 GB Gracard

 

4. Here the stones are put more together...does it loke better then the other one in your oppinion ?

[Bikerdude]

Yeah, what you can do is turn all the stones into a single func_static and then just put a big monsterclip brush just over the top so the Ai can walk over it. Equally you can make each stone into a FS and then just replicate, I assume you only have a few stone shapes and you have just replicated each shape to create the illusion of a random stone floor..?

 

You may have Vsync turn on which may be causing the FPS drop when you take a screenshot, what gfx card do you have in your laptop?

Edited January 28, 2011 by Bikerdude

[Midnight]

4. Here the stones are put more together...does it loke better then the other one in your oppinion ?

You obviously have a very good eye for what looks good, so I don't think you need to spend too much time looking for approval from others on the visuals side of things.

 

However...

 

I personally prefer the first screen of the cellar because the individual stones that you used in the later screen are very raised, which don't seem very suited to an interior scene and look a bit too weathered (i.e. from real weather: rain, wind, desiccation). They'd be perfect for an outdoor scene IMHO, but look out of place inside.

 

Loving the screens so far BTW, especially the city architecture.

[Johannes Burock]

Yeah, what you can do is turn all the stones into a single func_static and then just put a big monsterclip brush just over the top so the Ai can walk over it. Equally you can make each stone into a FS and then just replicate, I assume you only have a few stone shapes and you have just replicated each shape to create the illusion of a random stone floor..?

 

You may have Vsync turn on which may be causing the FPS drop when you take a screenshot, what gfx card do you have in your laptop?

 

 

1. no there are many (!) different stones...i start in one edge and then good luck and put one on the others...copy one rescale and so on...work work work...

 

2. GeForce 9650 GT 1GB VRAM...not the best but so what....this year should come a new machine...

[7upMan]

 

4. Here the stones are put more together...does it loke better then the other one in your oppinion ?

 

Hm, those stones are still a hell to walk on. Have a look at the pic of the Kellergewölbe you posted, especially the row of the floor stones. These stones are much more flat, and they are much smaller in size (not to mention they are uneven, but it would be asking too much to try and replicate that. Seriously). So, if you'd make your floor stones much smaller (as in half the size of your smallest stone) and have them stand out less, the effect would be much more realistic. Also, to save some work and to copy the pictured floor, you could raise them trough the base floor layer. This way you can scatter them much more freely, again saving you work.

[Baddcog]

They look much better imo, but like 7Up said, still maybe a bit much. It's all personal opinion and all that too. If I saw any of those 3 floors in a mission I wouldn't complain.

 

If you are getting 40-50 fps with that laptop it should be fine for a lot of players. I get those FPS drops with screenshots too, Doom3 might just have a hard time writing huge TGA's while the game is running.

 

Be aware though, AI will hit the FPS pretty hard too.

[Diego]

I'm really impressed by the screenshots here!

[Fidcal]

Me too.

 

I'm wondering if that chunky floor would be better exported from DR as one .ase model then re-imported. Would that help performance? We've seen large complex terrains with decent performance. In a small area performance should be OK anyway. Interesting and effective technique although extra work. I guess if we have complex vaulted ceilings with lots of trim detail then why not the floor too? I'd like to experiment with this myself when I get time and another build work. But a complete FM done this way would be daunting! Sections of func_static that tile might be an answer to speed it up and give more flexibility than a model.

 

From the screenshots its most noticeable at the edges where it meets the walls. We have some good cobble textures with deep normals that look very 3D but of course they are a straight line at the edges. Same with walls.

[nbohr1more]

When I first saw the screen, I thought "Did Johnannes modify his interaction.vfp to include Parallax mapping?"

 

There is still something illusory looking about those floor tiles but I suppose that is just the new Interaction shader and the Normal maps playing with my eyes a bit.

 

Are those really all polygonal stone tiles? Wow!

 

It may not be as pretty but you might be able to squeeze nearly the same look by making custom gray-scale heightmaps for the edges of each tile then use addnormals to blend the slopes. Then you could just have flat tiles rather than whatever shape you are using... (yeah, a heap-ton of work... )

 

I wonder if Tels will add floor tiles as SEED candidates ?

 

Can you do a show "r_showTris" on that scene?

[Fidcal]

Yeah, imagine func_static stones or stone groups on top of a matching normally textured surface say in a long street. As you walk along you can see the detail of the func statics around you but a few hundred units ahead they are hidden and only the undersurface shows in the distance.

[Tels]

Me too.

 

I'm wondering if that chunky floor would be better exported from DR as one .ase model then re-imported.

 

Either that, or use the SEED system to combine the all into one entity. (If the stones are almost flat, they can even be non-solid if you put a solid invisible patch around half of their height).

 

Would that help performance?

 

Definitely. If you have 1000 stones you get 1000 drawcalls per light, if you have one "floor model" you get 1 drawcall per light. It is the same with my "combined vegetation models" trick in SEED.

[Tels]

I wonder if Tels will add floor tiles as SEED candidates ?

 

Funny thing is I did something along the lines with randomly placed pebbles in my pond map. However, for the street with regular layout you either need a "pattern generator" (Iwish I had time to do something cool like this) or let the mapper put the stuff in DR, then let the SEED combine them during mapload.

 

The second is what I am currently working at, but other bugs always prevented me from making progress...

[Baddcog]

I think the Seed combine is the most useful for stuff like this. Vegetation is perfect for random stuff, but things like bricks/stones are usually details mappers want to place more specifically.

[SneaksieDave]

Just wanted to say really quick that all of your shots are simply awesome. Very exciting! This is exactly the kind of stuff I've always wanted to do but don't think I have the mettle to do so.