Thief 4 - Generative Music - Sounds Cool?

[Aprilsister]

In Stealing Sound: Generative Music In Thief 4, Eidos Montreal's Paul Weir will make the first public presentation regarding the upcoming fourth iteration in the noted stealth franchise, based around the fact that "innovative audio has been at the heart of the original Thief titles".

 

Weir explains: "This talk will argue for the benefits of using generative music in games... I will show our custom generative system (GRAMPS), demonstrate its key design features and suggest some best practice techniques". Weir intends to show "how using a single person as the composer, sound designer and audio director on a AAA title can help create a unified sound field."

 

Press Release.

 

Now press Ctrl-F4.

 

But seriously... this is a positive as far as I'm concerned.

 

Who wants to get cynical for us?

[OrbWeaver]

I can see "generative music" working if it's based at quite a high level: the human composer creates a set of elements that work well together (stabs, textures, tension builders etc) and the algorithm layers them based on game context.

 

If it's literally "computer generated music" as in the computer picking which notes to play, then that's pretty much guaranteed to sound awful.

[GameDevGoro]

... the human composer creates a set of elements that work well together (stabs, textures, tension builders etc) and the algorithm layers them based on game context.

 

Yeah this is most likely what it'll be, haha. xD

 

I think it could be cool and add more like.. feel and atmosphere to it. But I personally don't really pay attention to background score or ambient sounds that much, it sorta blends in with the experience.

It could be awesome. Unless it becomes one of those things you can actually learn to foresee when and how the background score will change. In that case it would start being distracting.

[Springheel]

I really don't see what's so interesting or impressive about this. Can someone explain it?

[Tels]

I really don't see what's so interesting or impressive about this. Can someone explain it?

 

I think it is along the lines of "random vegetation generator". If it is done well, the vegetation will blend in seamless, look natural, enhance the scene and you don't pay attention to it because it is so good. If not, it looks awful, unrealistic, and you get always reminded that this is "just a game", not reality. Except it's for the background/ambient/fightig music

 

Since I am really really crap at music, but have worked on a (much simpler, but still "huge") system for vegetation, I can only say "wow, if you implemented all that, thats a heck of a job" regardless of what the quality of outcome is.

 

 

Obligatory Anectode From The Past: I remember Ultima Underworld had a very crude system like that, when you get into fights, the music picks up pace, and when you win, it starts to get slower and more soft. Or shrieks when you die But I guess the new system is much much more complex.

[Springheel]

I think it is along the lines of "random vegetation generator". If it is done well, the vegetation will blend in seamless, look natural, enhance the scene and you don't pay attention to it because it is so good.

 

Well that's fine, but a random vegetation generator doesn't matter to the player at all, it's just a convenience for mappers. Why should T4 players be interested in random music generation? The best it can be is equal to what has been in previous games. Or am I missing something?

[_Atti_]

I like procedural generated stuff.

 

There was a showcase of Subversion (from Introversion) about how their procedural sampler worked. It was very simple and enjoyable that should produce a nice variety.

 

Thi4f however should really concentrate on keeping the viewpoint of the game either inside or outside, if not i fear no genius sound system will repair that immersion breaking..

[Tels]

Well that's fine, but a random vegetation generator doesn't matter to the player at all, it's just a convenience for mappers. Why should T4 players be interested in random music generation? The best it can be is equal to what has been in previous games. Or am I missing something?

 

Erm, yeah, I guess so If it helps mappers, it also indirectly helps players - they get more content,and the quality of the content can (but only can be higher.

 

Plus you have to consider the dynamics. Mappers/musicians create (mostly) static content - but the procedural content can be dynamic: vegetation changes, is different for each play, grows etc. - music is different depending on context (where you are, and what you are doing). Imagine f.i. for TDM the vegetation follows the player - e.g. it is only where the player is. Mappers cannot do this (except with some limited distance based culling), either their placed entities are there, or not.

 

It also means almost endless variations - music tracks (like manually placed vegetation) are static and they can get boring after you hear/see them for the umtenth time in the same exact variation.

 

It is like the dynamic ambient lighting system - instead of having a preset ambient light you get a light that reacts to what the environment is. Same for music - enter combat, and the music picks up pace and is not just "fade current music out and fade new music in", but more of a dynamic, smooth change from one style of music to the next. Seamless blending instead of fading.

 

Another example would be sunsets with clouds. If you look at our static skyboxes, they are boring because they are always the same. The one with the moving clouds is better, but even there the clouds are always the same and predictable. But if you had randomly generated sunsets with randomly generated clouds, it would be always interesting (because it is different each time).

 

Edit: Added one more example.

[nbohr1more]

The first time I ever noticed an interactive music score was in the SNES RPG ActRaiser.

 

The last time I heard someone discussing the topic was Factor 5 (creator of Star Wars: Rogue Squadron games) they still have their interactive score technology "MusyX" available for license:

 

http://www.factor5.de/licensing.shtml

 

I have not, outside of Studio musician experimental stuff (like high-end "Band-in-a-Box" software), heard of procedural music creation in a game until now. It will be interesting to see how things have progressed...

[Aprilsister]

Why should T4 players be interested in random music generation? The best it can be is equal to what has been in previous games. Or am I missing something?

 

All of the above about a jazz-free-form-live-jammy-mashup-spontaneous-unique-everytime experience...

 

And that this might signal that the folks working on Thief 4 aren't content to just churn out a game, but would rather do something -- something that at once recognizes one of the major traditional elements of the original game and also has a go at taking that tradition, underlining it, and developing it further.

 

Maybe.

[Komag]

I remember Far Cry had a bit to-do about this sort of thing - worked pretty well for that game

[demagogue]

This reminds me of when they had piano players accompanying silent movies, and they adjusted their playing based on what came on screen.

 

I imagine a system like this selects from templates based on the action, rather than purely generate music in a vacuum. I can see the potential. It's a step above simple cuing music by action.

[Springheel]

I remember Far Cry had a bit to-do about this sort of thing - worked pretty well for that game

 

Interesting that you mention that. I disliked that about Far Cry...I used to always be able to tell when an attack was imminent because the music changed.

 

We actually discussed a feature like that for TDM way early in development and decided it was a bad idea. Ironic that they're touting it as "something cool" about Thi4f.

[Komag]

I think a lot of games have "battle music", like Morrowind and others. So maybe they're talking about something more subtle or complex

[OrbWeaver]

HL2 had "excitement music" as well, but it wasn't generative. It just started playing at certain points where action sequences were scheduled.

[jaxa]

Empire Earth III? http://music.ign.com/articles/834/834112p1.html