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Sotha

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Perfect parry sounds like this:

3:45

 

I don't think TDM need such an option, because you already have the flashbombs to confuse the enemy. Or you can run away and close a door and it will take a lot of time for the AI to follow you. Thus there is probably no need for a perfect parry melee trick.

 

Flatfooted anim: ninjaed by Springheel.

Clipper

-The mapper's best friend.

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One other suggestion that was raised a while back was slowing down (or even eliminate) backwards running. That would make it harder for players to leap back out of the way of an attack, which is what AH seems to be doing a lot in his video.

 

I'll definitely revisit the combat settings for 2.01 and see if there's not a way to make it a bit more forgiving on the lowest settings and more challenging on the highest.

 

The day that change is effected is the day I stop playing TDM.

I always assumed I'd taste like boot leather.

 

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How would you communicate it? AI still need to be able to attack and parry in this state, so it can't be a full-body animation. Unless you make AI "off balance" as you suggested--but then that makes it really easy for players to hit the AI when they're in that state if the AI can't parry.

 

Btw, there is also the element of varying your attacks...if you use the same one over and over, AI learn to anticipate it and block faster.

 

I think it could be something as small as the AI just jerking his head or upper torso slightly back. In general what I'm saying is that the combat lacks the feeling of impact and motion. I just fired up the training level and tried out different enemies. I just stood there and blocked every incoming strike, and started thinking that the whole thing looks a bit like two people taking practice swings.

 

I have no idea how difficult it would be to achieve, but IMO the combat could use some more motion. When blades hit each other the combatants should recoil instead of remaining largely motionless. Currently it looks like there is no weight behind those swings. Also, there are neat sparks thrown in the air when blade hits armor. The same effect doesn't currently seem to apply for swords?

 

I know it sounds I'm being overtly critical, but don't take it the wrong way. I think the combat is completely fine as it is, but there is always room for improvement.

Edited by kyyrma
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The day that change is effected is the day I stop playing TDM.

 

If running backwards is slowed down you'll stop playing TDM? Okay.....

 

The same effect doesn't currently seem to apply for swords?

 

You're correct, because the swords don't actually impact each other. That would require a way to stop the animation at the right moment and reverse it somehow. Pretty difficult to code.

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Part of the thrill and fun of playing TDM is how lithe and free flowing the game feels. Going from Thief 3 to TDM was like night and day, T3 had terrible movement controls and feel.

To be artificially hobbled while walking backwards is a horrible idea. It was terrible in Thief 1 and it's still a terrible idea. Jumping out of the way of a sword attack makes sense, sure it's over powered but the mechanic itself is fine, it's that the AI is unable to deal with such a mechanic. They should rush forward and stab/slash at you when you jump back.

 

And I guess saying I'll stop playing is a little extreme, what I should have said was that I'll abandon combat completely just like I did in Thief 1.

I always assumed I'd taste like boot leather.

 

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A major factor for combat difficulty is fighting multiple enemies at once. Even with auto-parry enabled, I find fighting multiple enemies quite difficult. With auto-parry disabled, I find defeating 2 enemies at once, extremely challenging; and against 3, nearly impossible.

 

About slowing or eliminating running backwards: I think it would be a nice option to have e.g. Backward sprint enabled/disabled. And it could automatically be turned off with the Master Combat Difficulty setting. Just plain walking backwards could use a very slight decrease in speed so that if you are walking backward from an enemy all 4 of their attacks can hit you all the time. As of now, there are two enemy attacks (I can't remember which ones off the top of my head.) that will miss the player about 60% of the time, by simply walking backwards.

 

Perhaps the flatfooted effect could be removed from the enemies on Master difficulty or altogether or it could be another enable/disable option (the latter is my favorite way.)

Edited by SirGen
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Now what if there was a third element to it? What I'm proposing is parrying. Parrying, as opposed to blocking, would push the attacker off balance and leave a clear opening for a counter-attack. Parry could simply be a perfectly timed block: block just as the enemy's sword connects and you not only deflect the strike but push the enemy off balance. This should also be shown clearly through animation, with the enemy staggering and dropping guard.

 

To emphasize the importance of timing, enemies could be made much faster and accurate in deflecting oncoming blows. That would make parrying the best method for finding an opening to attack. The player would also be pushed off balance by striking at an enemy at the wrong time, which would leave him unable to act for a few moments and maybe shift the camera around a bit to visualize how the characer staggers.

 

My biggest problem with this is that once I master these kinds of techniques they make combat way too easy. This was how it was for me in Dishonored and Tenchu: Wrath of Heaven. It may have added depth at first, when it was difficult to do, but once I mastered it the enemy was way to easy to defeat. Perhaps this could be said for any element in any combat engine, but at least the current combat system, all but requires good foot work to win, while the parry/off balance system seems like it doesn't require footwork at all. I could be wrong. I'm wrong a lot :P

Edited by SirGen
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One other suggestion that was raised a while back was slowing down (or even eliminate) backwards running. That would make it harder for players to leap back out of the way of an attack, which is what AH seems to be doing a lot in his video.

 

I'll definitely revisit the combat settings for 2.01 and see if there's not a way to make it a bit more forgiving on the lowest settings and more challenging on the highest.

 

Like AH suggests, making the character less agile and clumsy is not only a nuisance, but I dont see how that would affect the issue in any way. Stepping backwards fast is not a necessity for easily defeating human AI (any experienced player can do it inside the duel format but simply blocking and coutering quickly, in fact, thats how I always play, just because I like the mechanics), but it is essential if you want to survive a fight with zombies, spirders and werewolves. If you cant run backwards, how are you supposed to get away from fights when other guards are coming to the rescue? You would have to slowly turn on your heels while gettting battered by your foe, and only then be able to sprint, which seems silly to me.

 

Like also mentioned, its not the player character who is at fault, but simply the AI that seems to lack a bit on that side, and is thus exploitable. The only way to defeat a zombie is to fight by straffing. Zombies will beat you up easily if you stand with them, but the difference here is that they remain dangerous from the outside, as, unlike the human AI (most of the time), they can intercept you with blows, timing them as you aproach. So you have to be careful and have a lot of spacve to deal with one (Im talking about the doom zombie AI, appearently the 2.0 zombie lacks this very feature and seems to be very vulnerable to a straffing player). So, IMO, keep the player as we know and are used to him, work should probably go into closing these gaps in the AI, which should only make them more fun.

 

Also, my proposition for making AI more forgiving for beginners and more challenging for experts would be a more versatile combat setting slider, where the player could have more control upon how they play in game. Current "difficulty levels" are too broad and force a certain kind of gameplay. All main settings should be tweakable by the player (in some kind of avanced panel), Player and AI's damage levels, AI's skill, AI's reflexes and speed (timing for jumping to action and overall speed of blows).

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Like AH suggests, making the character less agile and clumsy is not only a nuisance, but I dont see how that would affect the issue in any way. Stepping backwards fast is not a necessity for easily defeating human AI (any experienced player can do it inside the duel format but simply blocking and coutering quickly, in fact, thats how I always play, just because I like the mechanics), but it is essential if you want to survive a fight with zombies, spirders and werewolves. If you cant run backwards, how are you supposed to get away from fights when other guards are coming to the rescue? You would have to slowly turn on your heels while gettting battered by your foe, and only then be able to sprint, which seems silly to me.

Running backwards definitely affects the difficulty of combat. I agree that "stepping backwards fast is not a necessity for easily defeating human AI", but it is a factor in combat because it can make evading the enemy too easy. I do most of my combat testing in the FM The Alchemist. I am able to run backwards through that mission for many minutes at a time with out the enemies being able get close enough to attack me. Occasionally I will back into a wall and the enemy will be able to catch up and attack me, but usually I can just keep running backwards from the enemy until one of them gets ahead of the pack, then I move in for the attack, then I sprint back away from the group. I don't fight this way normally, just thought I'd point out how it does affect this issue.

 

Also, my proposition for making AI more forgiving for beginners and more challenging for experts would be a more versatile combat setting slider, where the player could have more control upon how they play in game. Current "difficulty levels" are too broad and force a certain kind of gameplay. All main settings should be tweakable by the player (in some kind of avanced panel), Player and AI's damage levels, AI's skill, AI's reflexes and speed (timing for jumping to action and overall speed of blows).

I don't want changes made that would ruin combat, or any other aspect of TDM for players, so I agree completely with you on having an advanced panel. This way I could limit my backwards moving speed to enhance my combat experience, and you could adjust the game so you could continue to fight your way against zombies, spiders and werewolves. Edited by SirGen
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Running backwards is difficult, so it could be slowed down a bit, for both realism and gameplay, but not too much. I honestly feel the current back&forth movement is an exploit against a fighting AI: AH and me both show of overpowered it is in the videos. Thus it is a bit sad for me when people make ultimatums about their playing habits. Bugs and exploits should be fixed, right?

 

What is the point of the parry system if you can just move out of the way like I show in my video. Remember, with slowed backwarf movememt, you would still have the strafe dodge option. Either you fight and remain close to the enemy or you turn your tail and run.

 

Alternatively, the AI could have lunge attacks, where they would cover a nice distance quickly combined with an attack.

 

But guess which one of the two is easier to implement?

 

I am all in for backward running speed reduction. I am against option bloat, where you have zillion pages of different options. It would be cumbersome to manage, and thus it is better to have a clear-cut TDM experience with easy, medium and hard difficulties the TDM team csn easily test and support.

Clipper

-The mapper's best friend.

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Backward-going speed something that could be distinguished between the harder and easier difficulties.

I dodge back and lunge in too, but that's what seems more fun & dynamic to me personally. That's kind of how I want to fight.

It's a bit too static to stand in place and parry and attack without some movement... I want to feel more flow, I mean.

And it's still not that easy running in and out, not like the T2 AI where it's a cakewalk. It's still a challenge to get shots in that way since the AI are good at parrying.

 

 

Now if fencing- or boxing-style step-movement might be fit into the fighting, that'd make it more dynamic and I might want to spend more time inside. I mean where attacks can be pushing the AI back or to the side, and Ai attacks or some player parrys can automatic push the player back. That's just a thought I'm throwing out though, not sure if it'd be good in practice until I see it.

What do you see when you turn out the light? I can't tell you but I know that it's mine.

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Can you separate "That's kind of how I like to fight" from "Thay's the most effective way to win a fight."

 

It is only natural that we grow attached to a method we find most effective. It is how basic psychology guides us to success.

 

However, if we want to objectively find exploits and eliminate them it directly means we must remove something that is very easy and effective. This removes easy exploits and brings in more challenge.

 

Make no mistake: back&forth movement is so effective and overpowered everyone uses it. Especially when coupled with a face stab.

 

I also think the complaints about alert AI surviving a face shot arrow is sort of the same thing. It was so easy and effective to down a in-rushing AI that people miss that easiness. Now they must down the AI while the AI is still unaware of the danger.

 

Less effective, more challenging. More challenge is more fun.

 

If there is a combat tactic everyone chooses over other tactics, it is a clear indication that it is an exploit.

Clipper

-The mapper's best friend.

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If there is a combat tactic everyone chooses over other tactics, it is a clear indication that it is an exploit.

 

Not necessarily. Personally I believe in this case it is not an exploit but a lack of AI response. A thief is agile isn't he? Let's make him not so agile... FUN! A thief is cunning in thief decision making...lets take away a choice for the player on evasive maneuvering... hrm.

 

The combat system has worked fine this long and lets be honest, mOSt players aVOId combat because even in its current state it IS difficult. Yes you can maneuver your character around quickly and the AI are not as quick but you're a master thief. There are solutions to this in the AI animations and scripting but until which time when those things can be addressed, why cripple the players movement.

 

Player movement is one of the draws of TDM much (for me) like it was for the original Half-Life. Player movement allows you to do things you would or could do in a real situation. Are some people clumbsy? Yes. Are all people clumbsy? No.

 

With the current system, clumbsy people are allowed to do things that make them feel like more of an athlete, like more of a thief. They can do things in-game that they couldn't pull off in real life. THIS is what games are about.

 

Balancing things is a natural human response in balanced individuals. My dad always told me that I should never do a job half-assed. Personally I think slowing the player movement in any direction is a half-assed fix/bandaid. Though we may not have the time/resources to address the root of the issue currently, that doesn't mean we won't in the future.

 

The current system has worked thus far save for a number of people that are at odds with it but they also have other choices they can make in the interim without affecting everyone elses experience.

 

Just my 2 cents.

Edited by Lux
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The problem here isn't that the player can move backwards too quickly but that the AI doesn't move enough or do so strategically. AI positioning and directed attacks could be used to inform player movement; unknowingly guiding players into corners or towards other guards. Instead all AI seem to do is run directly toward the player and then swing repeatedly when in range.

 

This same issue was the cause for concern over fatal headshots to alerted guards. A drawn bow should be cue for AI to stay at a distance, break line of sight, crouch to become a smaller target, and advance only when the player no longer has an arrow knocked. But TDM opted for the quick fix that made the challenge of landing a single fatal shot to an alerted guard impossible rather than just making it really hard.

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A drawn bow should be cue for AI to stay at a distance, break line of sight, crouch to become a smaller target, and advance only when the player no longer has an arrow knocked.

 

Given that the player can draw an arrow in less than a second, how would this not immediately become an exploit that allows players to keep AI at bay until they find a decent shadow?

 

But TDM opted for the quick fix that made the challenge of landing a single fatal shot to an alerted guard impossible rather than just making it really hard.

 

It wasn't a "quick fix". That notion was part of the design from the beginning--it was only an exploit that was introduced into TDM in a later update that allowed players to kill alerted AI with one shot.

 

Yes, it would be nice if AI did more things in combat, but unless someone has access to some coders and animators willing to work on it, it's not going to happen.

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Yes, it would be nice if AI did more things in combat, but unless someone has access to some coders and animators willing to work on it, it's not going to happen.

 

 

I would suggest that now is a good time to put up a general recruitment article. We shouldn't fall to pessimism about who "might show-up to help" before asking for

help :)

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Please visit TDM's IndieDB site and help promote the mod:

 

http://www.indiedb.com/mods/the-dark-mod

 

(Yeah, shameless promotion... but traffic is traffic folks...)

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Given that the player can draw an arrow in less than a second, how would this not immediately become an exploit that allows players to keep AI at bay until they find a decent shadow?

 

Are you asking me this question because you are genuinely unable to come up with a solution or because you don't like the suggestion to begin with and are looking for a reason to shoot it down?

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C'mon... You have to agree that it sounds like a REALLY advanced AI feature to

1) have AI to crouch behind a corner or a barrel when a drawn bow is pointed at them (and not fumble around stupidly around inappropriate objects.)

2) have the AI to be so well aware of the surroundings and the circumstances that the entire thing doesn't become another exploit. (the player would just walk around with a drawn bow and do what he pleases and the AI would just cower behind corners.)

3) have the AI to be aware of other AI around him so that they can operate cohesively to deal with the thief with the drawn bow. (attempt to flank.)

 

TDM has one of the most clever AI ever seen in stealth games, and sure, it can still improve, but -please- some moderateness/reasonableness in the feature demands should be in effect.

 

It is useless to fight an exploit by generating yet another exploit. There is a limit of stuff that can sensibly be accomplished, and a line has to be drawn somewhere. Sometimes, the "quick fix" (acknowledging that it isn't even a "quick fix") is the perfect solution in order to make stuff work reasonably well with sensible amount of work.

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Clipper

-The mapper's best friend.

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Are you asking me this question because you are genuinely unable to come up with a solution or because you don't like the suggestion to begin with and are looking for a reason to shoot it down?

 

Sotha kind of beat me to it. The idea strikes me as the kind of feature that sounds good at first glance, but would have diminishing returns as we delve into the details of exactly how to implement it in a way that avoids exploitation and unforseen consequences. But as I haven't sat down and planned out exactly how such a thing would work or what ramifications it would have, I was open to the possibility that you had already worked it out.

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Enemies that take shelter from the player and interact with him in that way already exist in Doom 3. I was under the impression human AI was supposed to take cover from an aiming player as a general rule, but somehow the behaviour isnt working as it should be, currently (or maybe I imagined reading the whole thing). Im not sure how feasible Rich's suggestion would be, but the precedents should be there. But thats beside the point (the point being there is no manpower right now to change combat related code in such deep ways).

 

The melee system is brilliantly done, major props to all coders involved. Like Lux says, for the great majority of users (and we know that by feedback), its more than challenging enough. We are discussing how to prevent a handful of expert players from "abusing" some of its flaws. It was the same for the arrow thing.

 

The player needs to be able to maneuver around enemies he CANT parry: zombies, spiders, werewolves, wizards.

 

Sometimes AI will get confused with a moving player. Someone posted a video of how zombies in the 2.0 version have become vulnerable to just that. This didnt happen with the Doom zombie that was used before (he was very good at antecipating your moves). These are code gaps that would have to be adressed in the future, and are not related to the player in any way. If this can be accomplished, I dont see what else would need to be changed.

 

BTW, I didnt see any exploitation in AH's run. All I saw was a very skilled player facing pretty combative AI in one on one fights with a lot of room to help you. If he was in a tight mansion with enough guards to surround him, things would probably be different. All some people are saying is that maybe if there was more ways of tweaking the AI to even higher difficulties, those expert players could still keep melee challenging for themselves.

Edited by RPGista
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Enemies that take shelter from the player and interact with him in that way already exist in Doom 3. I was under the impression human AI was supposed to take cover from an aiming player as a general rule, but somehow the behaviour isnt working as it should be, currently (or maybe I imagined reading the whole thing)

 

There is code for taking cover, though I don't really recall seeing it actually happen much. Grayman reported it working recently though:

 

The feature works at its most basic level. The Builder will stay out in the open and throw rocks as long as I don't bring up the bow. As soon as I do that, he runs around a bit, decides to throw another rock at me, then disappears behind the wall on the right.

 

He stays there for a while, then comes out and we start all over again.

 

Of course, it makes a lot more sense in Doom3, where AI can step out from behind a box, shoot their gun, and then crouch down again.

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Well I originally wanted sprinting backwards removed, due to it allowing the player to evade the enemy too easily. This was meant to be a compromise. Those who wish to be extremely fast and agile can continue by sprinting. Those who think that the enemy should be able to run faster forward than the player can backwards can show a little restraint and not use sprint when moving backwards. (I already use similar restraint by now allowing myself to put out torches with water arrows unless I'm at point blank range.) My desire for backwards walking being slowed is due to two of the enemies' attacks (still can't remember which ones off the top of my head.) missing the player about 60% of the time if the player simply walks backwards.

Edited by SirGen
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but how do you guys feel about reducing backwards walking speeds 10%-15% while leaving backwards sprinting speeds as they are?

 

I wouldn't want to reduce walking speed but leave running the way they are...that wouldn't make much sense.

 

I'm not really in favour of reducing backwards motion at all, if there's a better solution. The connection between the keys pressed and what the thief character is doing is slightly abstract--since the player can't turn his head, running "backwards" could be seen as running with your head turned back to look behind you.

 

But I also don't want players to be able to Rambo their way through the streets.

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