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TDM Combat


Sotha

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I wouldn't want to reduce walking speed but leave running the way they are...that wouldn't make much sense.

My reason for wanting this was in my last post. It was to be a compromise. I tested combat in The Alchemist mission, as I usually do. There is a long street that goes from the gate you start at to another gate near a homeless shelter. I entered god mode in the console and walked backwards away from an attacking enemy for about 5 minutes. The downward attack hit me 100% of the time. The left-to-right attack (enemy's orientation) hit me about 40% of the time. The right-to-left attack hit me about 50% of time, and the thrust only hit me about 20% of the time. I just think that avoiding this amount of enemy attacks by doing nothing more than walking backwards is a bad thing. Perhaps making the player walk backwards slower is a cheap fix though.

I'm not really in favour of reducing backwards motion at all, if there's a better solution. The connection between the keys pressed and what the thief character is doing is slightly abstract--since the player can't turn his head, running "backwards" could be seen as running with your head turned back to look behind you.

I never thought about it that way, but I like it.

But I also don't want players to be able to Rambo their way through the streets.

I agree, but I hope that the gameplay can continue to allow the player to be a worthy foe in combat. Edited by SirGen
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Thank you AluminumHaste, for showing me how it's done. This makes the whole game more fun. After adopting your tactics for combat, not only is combat itself more palatable, but stealth also takes on a different, more immersive feel. Due to the fact fighting is now faster and more dynamic, I'm more willing to fight when cornered instead of reloading. And this willingness to fight means the enemies themselves seem more threatening, even when they haven't seen me, because if they do see me, they might kill me, instead of just boring me into reloading.

 

I really hope you guys don't decide to nerf dynamic combat tactics by reducing the backward movement speed. In that case, there would be no way around the arduous experience I described in my earlier post. Consider this first:

 

AluminumHaste is really good at dynamic fighting. I'm not that good. My victory is far from assured, even when I adopt his tactics. The decrease in backward speed is not necessary to make fighting difficult for the average player - it's already difficult, and damn-near torture if you take a slower, more static approach.

 

I liked how combat worked in thief 1 and 2. It was difficult and felt a bit clumsy to the novice player, and indeed, I was only slightly better at it by the time I finished both games. But as I continued playing FMs, my skills gradually increased, until finally, after 100s of missions and god-knows how many hours, I was able to take out large groups of enemies with ease. Combat was easy to learn and tough to master, but possible to master - you weren't artificially hobbled.

 

The reason I liked this is because it puts the focus on stealth in a natural, organic way. It's not that you sneak up on the guard because the mission will automatically fail if he sees you, it's not even that you sneak up on the guard because the game has set the odds so overwhelming in his favor that fighting would be suicide. You sneak up on the guard because you're not a master swordsman, like, for real. You could be a master swordsman - nothing in the game is stopping you from fighting masterfully. You're just not, because you have not had the extensive experience necessary to become a master. If you actually practice long and hard enough, you can become a master swordsman.

 

"Being a good fighter" is not some mythical, impossible thing that reminds you you're in an artificial game world which does not contain "being a good fighter". "Being a good fighter" is something real, which you could have, but you don't, because you're a street urchin, not a highly-trained knight. "Being a good fighter" is there, it's just far away, and the reason you don't have it is the same in practical terms as the reason you don't have it in terms of the game's story: because it takes a lot of practice, and you haven't practiced that much. As opposed to: the reason you don't have it in practical terms is because the game you're playing doesn't allow it. See what I mean?

 

Right now (in light of AluminumHaste's tactics), dark mod is much like thief 1 and 2, in terms of combat. I've played a fair number of TDM missions, but I'm still not great at combat - I stick mostly to stealth because rambo tactics would get me killed (get me killed, not bore me into reloading, because combat is actually fun and something I do now, thanks to AluminumHaste.) You have to understand, the reason this seems like a real choice on my part is because I could chose to fight everyone, if I was a master swordsman, which I could be, if chose to practice that much.

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@eigenface I'm glad that you are enjoying combat now :D Even though I have mentioned changes that I would like made to the combat, I still really enjoy it the way it is. I just don't like how much enemy damage I can avoid simply by walking backwards, not to mention sprinting backwards. I think that I should have to be blocking as I back up to avoid taking damage.

Edited by SirGen
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And really, if you watch the video again, if I get hit twice in combat, at all, I die. I tried taking on a haunt and it's 1 hit to kill the player, so if movement speed was changed, I would just stop using combat altogether as it would become totally boring. We would both just sit there and and parry and riposte and that's it. I like all the hoping around and dynamic movement and parrying and blocking, it's so much FUN.

I always assumed I'd taste like boot leather.

 

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if movement speed was changed, I would just stop using combat altogether as it would become totally boring. We would both just sit there and and parry and riposte and that's it.

 

This is a logical fallacy. Slowing down backwards movement does not mean you cannot move at all, or "just sit." It just makes backwards move/dodge more challenging. It does not prevent it and you could still do it. C'mon, look at my video. It is far too easy to dodge the enemy simply by moving away. It is a silly exploit.

 

I think the combat will be revised in the next update (or two) and my proposal would be as follows:

 

1) slow down backwards running a bit. Not much, maybe 10%?

 

2) analyze AI attacking unarmored AI, how many hits kills?

 

3) analyze AI attacking the (lightly / almost unarmored) player, how many hits kills?

 

4) merge 2 and 3 into similar, reasonable, levels so that unarmored AI and the player are killed roughly by the same amount of hits by the longsword. Presently it seems AIs hit each other far more often for a kill when compared to the player. That feels very wrong. Some analysis has already been done http://forums.thedarkmod.com/topic/14978-testing-200/page__view__findpost__p__319360

 

5) The current "2 hits and you die" is a bit too harsh. I would have longsword hit the player or unarmored AI 4 times to kill. That assuming a mediocre/skilled/non-expert swordsman.

 

6) Add variation according to weapon type:

Standard longswords would be used as the +-0% base. 4 hits to kill.

Small weapons and low-quality weapons (daggers, zombie punch, club, shortswords) +25% hits to kill (5 hits).

High quality, special and heavy weapons (hammer, morning star, rare fancy sharp longswords) -25% hits to kill (3).

 

7) AI skill level should be considered. The skill affects the ability for the AI to hit targets a lot, just check with a novice to see. Novices with a dagger are so harmless, I'd like to propose that weapon damage is independent of AI skill, and the AI skill affects only the likeliness of hitting and the combat reactions.

 

Another option would be to apply another plus/minus 25% to hits-to-kill number according to AI skill, but in that case a novice with a dagger would need 6 hits to kill the player. That coupled with the hideous slowness of the attack and pathetic combat ability makes novices with poor weapons trivial for gameplay purposes. People can go see what I mean by playing Trapped! Those thugs are novices with daggers (or did they have shortswords?), and they don't feel dangerous at all.

 

8) Weapon hit distance should be re-evaluated. If you watch my video, you can see that the shorter weapons are way too easy to dodge simply by walking (!) away. The backwards running speed reduction will help, but some fine tunings may still be needed.

 

I have no comments about bows, but their damage should be checked they are in line with the new ones.

 

Finally, I had a thought about daggers and similar small weapons. Usually they are a bit crappy as explained above (low damage, short attack distance). Would it make light weapons like daggers more interesting, if the AI had the ability to throw them from medium range? Instead of charging the player, the AI could pull out a dagger, throw it at the player, spawn a new one and wield it. Dagger AI would be a sort of hybrid melee/ranged unit which would add some variation. And make the dagger dudes more interesting, keeping the player at their toes. Open for discussion.

Clipper

-The mapper's best friend.

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Those all sounds like great ideas, and I think they'd make the game better.

 

With the possible exception of the backward speed decrease. Having done a fair amount of sparring in unarmed martial arts, as well as LARP-style, padded-PVC swordplay, I've discovered that backing up and staying out of range is a perfectly viable defensive tactic. That is, assuming you don't run out of room. In TDM, I think it's appropriate for the thief to be an artful dodger, but if that absolutely has to be nerfed, I think there's a better way to do it than restricting movement, which makes the controls feel less effective overall. In your video, it seems to me the AI's problem is he's not moving forward as he attacks. He stops and stands in place whenever he takes a swing. Instead of slowing your retreat, make the AI advance while attacking.

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#5 is apparently an unintended consequence of something that happened in 2.0. There's a tracker about it, so it will be addressed for 2.01. http://bugs.thedarkm...iew.php?id=3583 I also plan to look at the different variables for combat difficulty and see if there's anything that can be adjusted there.

 

I have no desire to make combat harder than it already is for newcomers, but what I want to avoid is the "tie your own hand behind your back" syndrom for experienced players, where I know that I could easily kill all the guards in a level, and have to simply choose not to. Ideally, I should be using stealth and KOs because they are the most effective tool in my arsenal, because fighting is risky.

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Fighting is risky,

 

Is it? You took out pretty much every guard in the level in that video without getting hit once in melee. At the hardest difficulty, that shouldn't be possible without a lot of planning or special equipment, IMO.

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I was under the impression human AI was supposed to take cover from an aiming player as a general rule, but somehow the behaviour isnt working as it should be,

 

An AI that can't reach the player, has no bow, and resorts to throwing stones will seek available cover if the player raises his bow. (The bow appears on the HUD. Not to be confused with drawing the bow.)

 

That's reasonable behavior, given the AI's inability to fight back. Otherwise, he would just stand there and take an arrow. (He might have to if there's no nearby place to hide.)

 

An AI that can reach the player for melee, or has a bow, will not flee from the player's drawn bow. This gives the AI an advantage if he's close to the player, and gives the player an advantage if he's not.

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@Springheel I decided to see if I was among the "1%" who can run through and kill everyone in Fiasco at Fauchard Street like AluminumHaste did. As I did this I noticed that bowman in Fauchard wield daggers at a much faster speed than those only equipped with daggers in the mission Trapped! This was a very nice surprise! The enemies in Trapped swing so painfully slow that they are hardly challenging at all to fight :(Are there different kinds of dagger wielding enemies who are supposed to swing fast, and some who are supposed to swing slow, or could this be another issue similar to how torch carriers still have the old downward attack animation?(Bowman swing fast/those with only daggers swing slow) If the latter is the case, it would be nice if the slow dagger-wielders could have their attack speed increased in the next update.

 

P.S. After about 6 tries, I was able to kill all the enemies that AluminumHaste did

plus the guy upstairs in the bedroom

:D Even though I was able to do it, I still found it very challenging and fun. I tried to record it, but ezvid keeps crashing my computer and I don't feel like paying for fraps.

 

P.P.S. @AluminumHaste I think our next challenge should be to see if we can slaughter everyone in The Alchemist

except for the sorcerer, his undead minions and spiders maybe :wacko:

This should be considerably harder, since the chances of being able to fight the enemies one-on-one are very low.

Edited by SirGen
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Are there different kinds of dagger wielding enemies who are supposed to swing fast, and some who are supposed to swing slow,

 

There are untrained, trained and elite guards (not sure about the names) and they attack at different speeds.

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Yes it is for 99% of people. Can you do what I did?

 

 

P.S. After about 6 tries, I was able to kill all the enemies that AluminumHaste did

 

So we're back to: At the hardest difficulty, that shouldn't be possible without a lot of planning or special equipment, IMO.

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Lol it's still true most players avoid combat cause they suck at it. :P

 

I'd revise to, "...most players avoid combat 'cause they are ignorant of how to make progress with it." Note that once they are informed, those that desire to, become capable.

"The measure of a man's character is what he would do if he knew he never would be found out."

- Baron Thomas Babington Macauley

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Yes it took me six tries to finally do it, but as cheesy as it sounds, I have trained to be good at combat for months. I doubt someone who rarely ever fights could fight through Fauchard St. after six attempts. Also It was very challenging to defeat them all. If you watch my video, you'll notice that I ended with a sliver of health!

 

Like I've said before, once you have to fight two or more guards it's whole new story! In our rampages through Fauchard St., we never had to deal with two or more melee weapons swinging at us at the same time. So what I'm getting at is that combat could be made a little more difficult, but I don't think that it needs to be made a lot more difficult. Not to sound arrogant, but I do think that AluminumHaste and I are in the minority when it comes to combat skill.

 

I'll post some footage of me trying to fight my way through the Alchemist mission. It's gonna be a different story this time.

Edited by SirGen
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And we also come back to another key issue, which is map design/AI placement. To me, putting a lone guard in a wide dark space means one thing, the mapper expects you to take him out/get through him. It is all a matter of strategic choices. In order to mitigate the problems we are discussing, and keep the map challenging for all types of players, mappers should definetely work with groups of AIs that back each other, working flee points, armored, skilled guards, clusters of bright, well defended checkpoints, etc.

It would be very hard to rambo your way through the main courtyard in Heart of Lone Salvation, or into the target's compound in Score to Settle. But if the player can gradually pick apart guard after guard be it by blackjack, arrow or sword, and completely disarm the whole place like that, thats either the intention, or the map might simply not be, strategically, that well designed.

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Alright, here's me trying to fight my way through the streets in Sotha's and Fidcal's mission The Alchemist. Unlike my run through Fauchard Street, I had to fight multiple enemies at once which is extremely difficult to do. I truly tried my best and never let the AI defeat me. Combat difficulty: Expert. Auto-parry: Disabled.

 

I think combat difficulty right now is pretty good. It could be a little more difficult, but I don't think it should be made too much more difficult. I like being a great warrior who can defeat most any enemy one-on-one, and I also like having to run and hide if I am caught by more than one enemy.

 

Sorry about the load times not being edited out. I'm too lazy to learn how to edit videos at the moment ^_^

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rIiTI2f9duw

Edited by SirGen
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It`s not only the question of the capability, it`s the question of "are you willing to fight?". Yep. I am. But not in the DM.

And if the emphasis will be more on fighting and killing, I will stop playin the DM.

As long as it`s an option and no must, i`ve got no problem with it.

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It's usually just an option. (There are a few missions that have scripted events that spring surprise fights on the player, but they are very few.) If you watched the last video that I posted, you'll notice that fighting is not a very wise option if there are multiple enemies. I only find combat effective against one enemy at a time, and sometimes two.

Sneaking is still the best option if you want to complete a mission, even for someone like me who enjoys a good fight every now and then.

Edited by SirGen
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Hmmm, I can do three regular guards, maybe more, but the Elite guards are really really good.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xg0ciB2p14w

 

I have to say I'm incredibly impressed with how well the AI cope with each other and not get in each others' way. It was so easy to get the T1,2,3 AI to get stuck on each other. Good job.

I always assumed I'd taste like boot leather.

 

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