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TDM Combat


Sotha

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  • 3 months later...

Is there a way that I can edit the Darkmod.cfg file so that I can increase damage dealt by the player? I edited the line seta g_damageScale "1" to seta g_damageScale "9". Changing the 1 to a 9 only increased the damage dealt by enemies. I would like to have both the enemy and myself be able to kill each other in one hit, just for fun.

Edited by SirGen
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  • 2 weeks later...

I understand the idea that when you play as a thief, you should not be an experienced swordsman. I get it. But the combat in TDM doesn't feel like that. It doesn't feel like you're being poverpowered by people way better at fighting than you are, it feels more like your character doesn't know how his basic muscle groups function when wielding a blade, and you end up dying just because it's basically a guard versus a handicapped person. The directional swing system feels incredibly clunky when its bound into the mouse movement. It's basically the only control feature in TDM that changes the control behavior contextually, and removes a certain ability to make room for something else. Ie. you can't aim while a sword swing is being selected.

 

Even though the swordfighting in Thief 1 is broken and horrible, there was a basic concept that was just right. Swing direction being chosen by target position on the screen. It doesn't take a long time to learn that when you aim to the left side of the target, you swing from the left, or when you aim downwards, you thrust. Or that when you want to block swings, you aim at the swing and press block, and when you want to parry a thrust, you swing from the side to redirect the thrust to the side. This kind of system never changes the control behavior, never locks your aim in place, and makes the game flow much smoother. It would make the combat easier, sure. Easier than something artificially difficult. But that's when you would need to make the AI better at fighting, so that even with a smooth swordfighting control system, the player could barely have a chance against one opponent.

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You have to remember that you're playing a character who's main purpose in life is to not get noticed. This means few opportunities to practice and experience sword fighting. One could imagine a thief learning sword fighting skills on a practice dummy I suppose, but I'd expect a master thief would eschew learning sword fighting skills and instead use the time to work on improving their lock-picking and steal capabilities. So when going into a sword fight against guards who I would imagine are far better trained at using a sword than the player character would be, there's got to be some way to artificially hamper the player's fighting skills, such that it matches what a thief would be expected to know. At the very least it ensures the player is not just cutting down everyone and instead pushes them towards stealth and being sneaking, which is what you want people to do by default in a game like TDM.

 

If you have to resort to sword fighting then you've fucked up and have to deal with the consequences (with the exception of forced combat in missions like The Transaction). A master thief would be disadvantaged against well-trained opponents anyway, hence it fits the player character perfectly. TDM isn't like Dishonored where both combat and stealth are legitimate options. The sword fighting in TDM is deliberately handicapped against the player - it seems like the only way to show this in gameplay is to make combat clunky and tricky.

Edited by At0mic
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I agree that lockpicking skills and stealing capabilities should be high on a thief's list of skills to improve, but I also think that having the ability to defend oneself if caught is very important. If I were a thief in The Dark Mod world, I would definitely work on my sword skills.

 

I also don't think that TDM's combat is clunky. There have been a few who have agreed with you that it is, and every time I read it, I scratch my head and wonder what is clunky about it. It's almost identical to Mount & Blade's combat. If an enemy is attacking downward you move your mouse up toward the attack and press the block button. If they attack from the right, you move the mouse to the right and press the block button. If you wish to attack downward, drag the mouse down and press attack. If you wish to thrust, move the mouse forward and press attack. It's basic, effective and fun.

 

I can ususally beat any mortal one on one. Sometimes I can beat two human fighters at once. If there are three or more enemies, I run like hell and hide somewhere dark :P

Edited by SirGen
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If you wish to attack downward, drag the mouse down and press attack. If you wish to thrust, move the mouse forward and press attack. It's basic, effective and fun.

 

To me it just doesn't make any sense that the muscles normally responsible for turning and tilting my head are no longer performing their normal function, but instead are responsible for choosing my method of attack with a sword. That's what is so clunky about it. I don't think it's very intuitive when any swordfight ends up being me moving my head up and down, left and right, and sometimes managing to cause different swings and thrusts to emerge and miss my target because the only way to make that happen is to flail my head all over the place. The most jarring part of it all is how preparing to attack stops my ability to aim, because the mouse aiming controls get hijacked by the attack selection system. And it's not that I absolutely need my ability to aim at that moment. It's the mere fact that the basic controls of the game suddenly change their function. It's just so... dare I say, immersion breaking.

 

I don't want the ability to slaughter dozens of guards. I just prefer the guards being made tougher and more capable fighters, than the player's control being hampered so that you don't have to.

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That's what is so clunky about it. I don't think it's very intuitive when any swordfight ends up being me moving my head up and down, left and right
See, I felt almost the same when I first went through training mission and St. Lucia, but after effectively unbinding the block button I was able to take on up to 3 enemies. Just strafe around and back away, keep a thrusting attack (accurate and doesn't hit walls) prepared, wait for an opening and aim for the head. Try slaughtering your way through The Rift or Samhain Night for practice. Edited by chedap
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If you're caught, you run the shit outta there! I'd imagine most thieving bastards in real life would do a runner if caught, rather than try to fight and suffer worse consequences.

 

I've found that sometimes it is best to run, and sometimes it is best to stand and fight the one enemy who caught you, instead of running through a mission and getting caught by many more enemies in the process. Or the enemy blocks the way out and there doesn't happen to be a lot of room to maneuver, so trying to run around the enemy gets you killled. Of course, fighting can also attract more guards if they are close by. So both running and fighting have their places.

 

To me it just doesn't make any sense that the muscles normally responsible for turning and tilting my head are no longer performing their normal function, but instead are responsible for choosing my method of attack with a sword. That's what is so clunky about it. I don't think it's very intuitive when any swordfight ends up being me moving my head up and down, left and right, and sometimes managing to cause different swings and thrusts to emerge and miss my target because the only way to make that happen is to flail my head all over the place. The most jarring part of it all is how preparing to attack stops my ability to aim, because the mouse aiming controls get hijacked by the attack selection system. And it's not that I absolutely need my ability to aim at that moment. It's the mere fact that the basic controls of the game suddenly change their function. It's just so... dare I say, immersion breaking.

 

I don't want the ability to slaughter dozens of guards. I just prefer the guards being made tougher and more capable fighters, than the player's control being hampered so that you don't have to.

 

It only takes a quick flick of the mouse or joystick to dictate the direction of a block or attack. You don't need to continually move your mouse or joystick in the chosen direction for the entirety of the swing or block. I will concede that just because it is intuitive to me, doesn't mean that it will be to all. I don't know how long you you've been playing for, but maybe with a bit more practice it will feel natural. Maybe not though :(

 

There's only one taffer I know of who can slaughter a dozen guards at once; named AluminumHaste!

Edited by SirGen
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I purposefully don't practice fighting skills in TDM, and am terrible at parrying so when the time actually comes to use a sword, I'm all thumbs/frantic/eek! Because for me that suits the thief character and immersion better than if I get caught and the guard gets in mAYBe one hit and then dies to my superior sword fighting prowess.

 

It allows me to feeeel as the player character would feel when he's caught and must defend himself. Gain some distance and hide, that's what a thief would do and that's what I force myself to do in order to stay immersed.

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I've found that sometimes it is best to run, and sometimes it is best to stand and fight the one enemy who caught you, instead of running through a mission and getting caught by many more enemies in the process. Or the enemy blocks the way out and there doesn't happen to be a lot of room to maneuver, so trying to run around the enemy gets you killled. Of course, fighting can also attract more guards if they are close by. So both running and fighting have their places.

To be honest, if I screw up such that an enemy spots and comes running to me, I quickload almost immediately. My aim is to complete missions with a reasonable stealth score - direct combat kinda ruins that. For this reason I don't normally get put in a situation where I have to use my sword. Maybe it's not quite as immersive if I'm save scumming, but the game is unforgiving and it makes things less frustrating if you make a single slip-up.

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I usually don't re-load until I get killed or a fail something, so I do end up bringing out the sword sometimes.

 

If it's just a guard or two then I usually don't have too much trouble fighting provided I've committed to fighting them, so I find the combat more or less just fine as is.

 

I find that what usually gets me killed isn't really combat by itself, it's being indecisive as to whether I should run or fight.

If I've decided that I'm going to fight then I'll usually get the kill, or if I've decided to run then I'll usually get away without too much trouble.

If I'm sort of half-retreating half-fighting and haven't really decided and committed to either one fast enough, then that's where I usually end up having trouble.

Edited by Professor Paul1290
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I always wonder why people get hung up the sword, and don't wonder how a silent and agile thief manages to get around with a bow and a quiver full of arrows.

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Either way the sword is not very heavy.

 

A one-handed "arming sword" is usually maybe around two and a half pounds (1.13kg?). What our thief is carrying is probably smaller than even that.

That's not super light, but I'm pretty sure the rest of his gear not to mention the loot he might carry weighs quite a bit more than that.

 

Unfortunately, I don't know what a traditional bow of the similar time-period / technology-level would weigh.

I do know that a lot of modern wooden bows can be pretty light and can weigh around one to one-and-a-half pounds (0.45 to 0.86 kg) on their own, without the quiver and arrows. That said, those would be made with more modern tools and techniques, so I don't know how much lighter or heavier they might be or whether they would be comparable at all.

Edited by Professor Paul1290
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A bow is going to be just as long as a longsword, and a bunch of arrows rattling around in a quiver would be far louder. Not as loud as the sack full of golden goblets, coins and vases, though.

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Heck, if I knew something about Doom 3 modding, I'd probably want to find a way to integrate specific Doom 3 resources in the mod. Imagine playing The Dark Mod armed with a shotgun, chainsaw, rocket launcher or even the BFG! :o

 

Probably wouldn't go with the theme of the game and the setting, but it'd be good for a laugh. It'd also make combat horribly one-sided ("Did I see... something? *BOOM*), but again, for short-term amusement I'd be worth it.

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  • 2 months later...

I'm not exactly sure where to post this, but since it's combat related, here we go.

 

I've been modifying some values to make enemy attacks a little faster:

 

// default (fast) attack and parry anim speeds:

"anim_rate_melee_attack_rl" "1.47"

"anim_rate_melee_attack_lr" "1.67"

"anim_rate_melee_attack_over" "1.37"

"anim_rate_melee_attack_thrust" "1.67"

 

I am able to block these attacks on occasion, but I think it would be helpful to speed up the player's block/parry animation a bit.

 

Would someone please tell me where I can modify the player's block/parry animation speeds?

Edited by SirGen
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As I was messing around with AI attack animation speeds, I noticed that the AI's downward attack was significantly weaker than the rest of the attacks. I thought that maybe I had accidentally changed the value for the downward attack animation so I tested it out in my non-modified 2.02 version. Same thing; downward attacks are still much weaker than the rest. I then tested it in my non-modified 2.01 version and got the same results. Also, in all three tests, I noticed that changing combat difficulty did not change the amount of damage dealt by AI in general. At least I couldn't tell that it did. I only tested it in Vengeance for a Thief Part 2, When I test some more I will test multiple missions. I am downloading a brand new 2.01 to do some testing with a version that I can be sure has not been modified. But it takes a while to download, so I thought I'd ask:

 

Can anyone else test this and tell me their results for both the AI's weaker Downward Attack Damage and Combat Difficulty settings not changing the amount of damage dealt by AI please? (2.02 and/or 2.01)

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Whoa. Very good catch! I just checked, and someone (probably me) set the default downward swing to 10 damage and commented out the default 44 "for testing purposes". The change was somehow uploaded and has been active since 2.01.

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