Jump to content
The Dark Mod Forums

How hard is blackjacking in 1.04


Springheel

  

36 members have voted

  1. 1. How difficult do you find KOing in 1.04?

    • I fail too often to even bother trying
      1
    • It's about 50-50 for me
      17
    • I don't find it difficult at all
      15
    • It's almost too easy
      3


Recommended Posts

  • Replies 80
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

The larger head bounding box is intended to make it easier to KO AI when not in combat, and also make sure it goes outside the helmet as Spring said, but in combat it gets reduced to the normal head box. You don't want to leave on the larger head box in combat, because it could extend beyond the helmet and let you kill them with the sword as if they had no helmet. I forget how this ties into attacking an unalerted AI with the sword from the back... might have put in a specific check against that.

 

I don't know why swapping to the smaller, normal box could be letting you KO un-helmeted AI from the front. Unless something with the AI skeleton changed and the normal box wasn't updated but the larger box was? You can confirm this with g_showcollisionmodels.

 

You sometimes get KO's from the front due to collision detection issues, if you're leaning forward and the AI is running into you, and as soon as the blackjack collision test starts, it's already at the back of their head. Also, I said this ages ago, but the latest combat animations make the AI run with their heads lowered, staring down at the ground. Not only does this look a bit silly, but it also opens them up to KOs from the front, because they are pretty much presenting the backs of their head to you when they run forward at you like that.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I did some testing and the problem is that D3 physics really does think you hit the back of the AI's head from standing in front of them. Sometimes the D3 collision testing isn't all that accurate. The AI head is modeled as a rectangular prism that's flat on top, and to make matters worse, the combat animations are all tilting their head down slightly, which puts the back verts of the rectangle higher up than the front ones, making them the first to touch if you were to bring a flat thing down toward their head. If D3 tracemodels for the head and blackjack could be perfectly rounded, we wouldn't have this probleem, but they can't.

 

In the images below, I blackjacked from the front and then stopped time and rotated around to the side so you could see the impact point on the AI. The red arrow pointing down at their head shows where D3 thinks the collision took place. In the first case, things work as intended, I hit them in the front of the head and they didn't get knocked out. I was standing fairly far away. In the second case, shown first from the front and then from the side, the collision was registered at the back vert of the head, knocking them out. Standing closer to them and hitting them while they're attacking and looking down makes this more likely.

 

post-40-129947271276_thumb.jpg

 

post-40-129947272793_thumb.jpg

 

post-40-129947274234_thumb.jpg

 

Now, the blackjack CM is not flat, it's angled up a bit (from the player's perspective) which is intended to improve accuracy here, by making sure it hits the vertices of the rectangle-head on the side you're facing first. But it's clearly not enough. The change of moving the blackjack CM to the center of the screen may have made this a bit worse, because when it was off-center before, the corner of the box came down on the head, so collisions were tested along the edge of the box, and it seems like tests with the verts and edges of CMs (at the corner of the blackjack box) are a bit more accurate than tests where you're colliding one face against another face. It tends to put the collision point at the verts, which in this case are erroneously the ones at the back of the head.

 

I can't think of an easy way to fix this. If you make the blackjack CM shorter so it can't reach around to the back of the head from the front, people complain that they can't KO from far enough away when standing behind the AI. If you added an extra vert to the AI head sticking up in the center, the somewhat crappy collision system would probably always detect a collision right at that vert, regardless of whether you're in front or behind. The old blackjack CM position seemed a bit more accurate for these tests, but it was off-center left-right.

 

The helmeted AI don't have this problem because they're immune to KO in combat. Maybe we should just make un-helmeted guards immune to KO in combat as well? They'd still be a little easier to KO from the front than they should be in the searching state, but at least in that state, compared to combat, they're typically not as close to the player and not looking down as much. I can't think of a reason we want to allow KOs in combat, unless the AI is fighting someone else and we sneak up behind them? Adjusting the combat animations so they don't bull-rush you with their head down would help a bit, too.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

lol Ahhh, so there are some players doing the old Thief run jack then.

 

Ahhhh, yes, there are some players who are not bothered to learn how to blackjack with any aim towards a skillful and ultimately more satisfying attempt.

 

Often fixing problems that aren't there can really lead to real problems. :ph34r:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I can't think of an easy way to fix this. If you make the blackjack CM shorter so it can't reach around to the back of the head from the front, people complain that they can't KO from far enough away when standing behind the AI. If you added an extra vert to the AI head sticking up in the center, the somewhat crappy collision system would probably always detect a collision right at that vert, regardless of whether you're in front or behind.

 

Can't we just put a setting in the def files of non-helmeted heads that prevents the head CM swap?

 

There is really nothing wrong with the current system, so re-thinking to the degree that you have been is overkill. :)

 

All we need to be capable of leaving the larger box turned on for non-helmeted AI.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Adjusting the combat animations so they don't bull-rush you with their head down would help a bit, too.

 

We currently have no way to distinguish between run animations and combat run animations.

 

Maybe we should just make un-helmeted guards immune to KO in combat as well?

 

I don't see any obvious reason why not.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I don't see any obvious reason why not.

 

I would be ok with that too. I just need to clarify something though.

 

When the AI are in agitated searching mode...'alert 4'...the larger box is still active, right? So they would not become immune until 'alert 5', when they are actively in combat?

 

If so, that makes sense, since you can only black jack them from behind at alert 4...and no AI in combat is going to let their guard down for you to get a hit in from behind. :)

 

I can look into the defs to see how this is setup.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Based on the current def settings, I'm not sure how we would do this.

 

/**

* Name of the alert state when AI's KO behavior changes

**/

"ko_alert_state" "4" //once AI draw weapon

 

/**

* If set to true, AI becomes immune to KOs when alerted

**/

"ko_alert_immune" "0"

 

 

AI ko cones change on alert_state 4....if ko__alert_immune is set to 1, it simply looks for the alert_state and sets immunity there....in our case 'level 4'.

 

That would mean non-helmeted AI would become immune while in agitated searching mode (alert 4)...or if we set the non-helmeted AI to alert_state 5, they would be blackjackable from any angle at (alert 4), which changes established behavior.

 

Maybe there is another setting for ko_immune that I'm missing?

 

So, we either need to have a separate setting like ko_alert_immune_level...so it doesn't automatically use ko_alert_state, or go with my previous suggestion of having a setting to disable the CM switch on non-helmeted AI. Either will work, but both will require adding a new setting.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I would just set that ko immune state to 5. What makes you think the larger head model would be more accurate? If anything I would think it would make it worse, because it's longer in back, and when the AI tilt their heads down, this will make the back stick up even more. If you want to test this, you could go into the AF file and temporarily edit their head box to be the same as the extended head box. I don't think it will help prevent the front-KOs on alert 4 (is the head box even swapped to the smaller one on alert 4? I thought it happened in combat?), but you can try.

 

 

Based on the current def settings, I'm not sure how we would do this.

 

/**

* Name of the alert state when AI's KO behavior changes

**/

"ko_alert_state" "4" //once AI draw weapon

 

/**

* If set to true, AI becomes immune to KOs when alerted

**/

"ko_alert_immune" "0"

 

 

AI ko cones change on alert_state 4....if ko__alert_immune is set to 1, it simply looks for the alert_state and sets immunity there....in our case 'level 4'.

 

That would mean non-helmeted AI would become immune while in agitated searching mode (alert 4)...or if we set the non-helmeted AI to alert_state 5, they would be blackjackable from any angle at (alert 4), which changes established behavior.

 

Maybe there is another setting for ko_immune that I'm missing?

 

So, we either need to have a separate setting like ko_alert_immune_level...so it doesn't automatically use ko_alert_state, or go with my previous suggestion of having a setting to disable the CM switch on non-helmeted AI. Either will work, but both will require adding a new setting.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

probably i do not say nothing..because this version is the first i've tried, but i don't find any problems blackjacking ...

 

i can do it also on a sleeping guard (but not always...just if there is enought space ...)

 

i find that bj - ops i mean blackjacking ....sorry for my poor english i am italian :) :) - it is more realistic and enjoyable than thief 2...

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Started up The Transaction with 1.04 after a long TDM hiatus. Got 5 KOs, two of which I missed+reloaded one or more times.

I know there are engine constraints but as of now, the blackjacking mechanism is almost impossible for me to get always right on the first try, like in Thief.

 

However, I have decided that - even if it feels unfair (one time I KOed a guard in the exact same spot that didn't work earlier, though maybe I was slightly further away on the second try) and somehow breaks immersion a bit - I will stop reloading and will have to flee. Makes for some tense gameplay. Anyway, I have been a blackjack-happy player of Thief but I must say that I hardly ever blackjack in TDM. Was it a natural adaptation to the system? I don't know, but I won't complain about being more of a ghoster in The Dark Mod.

 

@those saying that it's too easy and there's no challenge in it, I would be interested in a youtube video showing consistently KOing a series of helmeted guards in various poses/routes and without a single reload. That would help me understand in practise what is the ideal spot/distance :)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

There are walkthroughs out there with KOing in them...I recall a Knighton Manor one in particular.

 

Blackjacking should be more consistent and predictable when 1.05 comes out, however.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

We spent some time looking into the feedback we've gotten from players over the past few months, and have found a few things that slipped by us previously.

 

I have decided that - even if it feels unfair (one time I KOed a guard in the exact same spot that didn't work earlier, though maybe I was slightly further away on the second try) and somehow breaks immersion a bit - I will stop reloading and will have to flee.

 

This was something I had happen to me a lot...getting close to an opponent for a KO and having it inexplicably fail, even though everything appeared perfectly setup. This was a tough one to catch, but it turned out that the blackjack collision box extended too far down the handle of the blackjack. Getting really close to the AI caused the bottom edge of the Collision box on the handle to clip in front of the KO cone on the AI's head and trigger a failure. Shortening the box by a few units fixed the issue.

 

Another issue was that the blackjack collision box was not properly aligned to the black jack at the point of impact. It was off to the left by six units. If you were line up a shot dead centre...the Ko would often fail because you were usually only catching the ko cone with the edge of the black jack collision box. I often saw players saying they had to take one or two steps to the right to get a successful KO. The box has been properly aligned for the next release, so KO'ing should be more reliable and enjoyable.

 

@those saying that it's too easy and there's no challenge in it, I would be interested in a youtube video showing consistently KOing a series of helmeted guards in various poses/routes and without a single reload. That would help me understand in practise what is the ideal spot/distance :)

 

I think these players were just subconsciously able to adjust to the misaligned collision box...and others couldn't. Our brains are all wired a bit differently...so if the onscreen blackjack wasn't matching up with the collision boxes...that was bound to create issues.

 

Version 1.05 should be a much nicer experience. Hopefully people won't feel forced into ghosting anymore, and will be comfortable blackjacking once again. :)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 2 weeks later...

Maybe it's because I am playing Thief 2 at the moment, but I am still frustrated by trying to hit them right too many times. Maybe there should be a difficulty setup like it is already for the sword fights?

"Einen giftigen Trank aus Kräutern und Wurzeln für die närrischen Städter wollen wir brauen." - Text aus einem verlassenen Heidenlager

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Maybe it's because I am playing Thief 2 at the moment, but I am still frustrated by trying to hit them right too many times. Maybe there should be a difficulty setup like it is already for the sword fights?

 

Please see my post above SeriousToni. The blackjack system has been revamped for the next release.

 

It wasn't a problem with the blackjacking system being 'difficult' so much as 'inconsistent' due to a few glitches that we didn't spot until recently.

 

I'll quote myself.

 

...getting close to an opponent for a KO and having it inexplicably fail, even though everything appeared perfectly setup. This was a tough one to catch, but it turned out that the blackjack collision box extended too far down the handle of the blackjack. Getting really close to the AI caused the bottom edge of the Collision box on the handle to clip in front of the KO cone on the AI's head and trigger a failure. Shortening the box by a few units fixed the issue.

 

Another issue was that the blackjack collision box was not properly aligned to the black jack at the point of impact. It was off to the left by six units. If you were line up a shot dead centre...the Ko would often fail because you were usually only catching the ko cone with the edge of the black jack collision box. I often saw players saying they had to take one or two steps to the right to get a successful KO. The box has been properly aligned for the next release, so KO'ing should be more reliable and enjoyable.

 

These updates and more will be in the upcoming 1.05 release.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Yes, there is a bug right now where you can KO bare-head guards from the front even when alerted. That's not really supposed to happen.

 

I just tried this in real life with my friend, I can assure you it does happen, he's going to have quite the headache when he wakes up. :ph34r:

I always assumed I'd taste like boot leather.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

@those saying that it's too easy and there's no challenge in it, I would be interested in a youtube video showing consistently KOing a series of helmeted guards in various poses/routes and without a single reload. That would help me understand in practise what is the ideal spot/distance :)

 

It's possible, that since I have SVN access that I have been enjoying the blackjack fixes all this time. I'll try to make a video right now with v1.04 and see if I can do what you ask.

I always assumed I'd taste like boot leather.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I haven't had to much trouble with blackjacking as long as I'm patient and make sure the helmeted AI's are not looking around (as they seem to do sometimes even when they're not alerted). I've always used blackjacking cause I totally suck at sword play.laugh.gif I've also KO'd a few from the front (if you hit them enough timesblush.gif)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


  • Recent Status Updates

    • Ansome

      Finally got my PC back from the shop after my SSD got corrupted a week ago and damaged my motherboard. Scary stuff, but thank goodness it happened right after two months of FM development instead of wiping all my work before I could release it. New SSD, repaired Motherboard and BIOS, and we're ready to start working on my second FM with some added version control in the cloud just to be safe!
      · 0 replies
    • Petike the Taffer  »  DeTeEff

      I've updated the articles for your FMs and your author category at the wiki. Your newer nickname (DeTeEff) now comes first, and the one in parentheses is your older nickname (Fieldmedic). Just to avoid confusing people who played your FMs years ago and remember your older nickname. I've added a wiki article for your latest FM, Who Watches the Watcher?, as part of my current updating efforts. Unless I overlooked something, you have five different FMs so far.
      · 0 replies
    • Petike the Taffer

      I've finally managed to log in to The Dark Mod Wiki. I'm back in the saddle and before the holidays start in full, I'll be adding a few new FM articles and doing other updates. Written in Stone is already done.
      · 4 replies
    • nbohr1more

      TDM 15th Anniversary Contest is now active! Please declare your participation: https://forums.thedarkmod.com/index.php?/topic/22413-the-dark-mod-15th-anniversary-contest-entry-thread/
       
      · 0 replies
    • JackFarmer

      @TheUnbeholden
      You cannot receive PMs. Could you please be so kind and check your mailbox if it is full (or maybe you switched off the function)?
      · 1 reply
×
×
  • Create New...