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Johannes Burock

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ok, after spending some hours in texturecreation:

 

some can lood very 3d with the normal maps...tesselation isnt avaiable, but what is with parallax occlusin ? or is there another way to get more 3d effect into the maps?

 

EDIT: after some searching: iknow its not possible, but there is a mod for doom 3 to give pm in addition...so is it possible to get such a thing into TDM ?

 

there are some mods: sikkmod, extreme quality mod, parallax mapping mod

Edited by Johannes Burock
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While some of these mods are possible, the performance hit when added to the already heavy Interaction Shader has been deemed too much at this point. Rebb and JC Denton have clarified that when Doom 3 goes Open Source (presumably in the fall of this year?) that they will be able to break the "Unified Interaction" system so that only selected surfaces will have to process Parallax mapping or other shaders.

 

I will say, that I am curious about how POM compares to pure geometry in Id Tech 4 since this engine is so fillrate intensive comparative to modern deferred-render engines that the truism of "POM is worse than Tessellation" might not be the case here.

 

 

If you don't want to wait (and you want to be extra cruel performance-wise) you could create an optional glprogs override PK4 to put into your FM folder when it's installed:

 

1) Unzip the tdm_base01.pk4

2) Locate the glprogs folder

3) Modify the test.vfp and interaction.vfp to include Sikkpin's POM (or whatever other shader you want)

4) Take you modified glprogs folder and zip it something like "zzz_custom_glprogs.pk4"

5) Offer this "override file" to folks who want punishing performance for extreme beauty.

 

 

Notes:

 

1) You might be able to skip steps 1 through 3 and just use another author's glprogs if you make it clear that the TDM graphic menu choices won't work with the override. Be aware, however, that only TDM has Rebb's simple texture ambient method and JC Denton's extended version of it so any other glprogs with an ambient light fix (not many do) would only have a real-time solution.

 

2) For most POM and Parallax mods you will need to include heightmaps. I believe that Sikkpin's POM method will look for the heightmap in the alpha-channel of the normal map.

Please visit TDM's IndieDB site and help promote the mod:

 

http://www.indiedb.com/mods/the-dark-mod

 

(Yeah, shameless promotion... but traffic is traffic folks...)

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I made a youtube video with Sikk's POM, and just thinking about all those polys from a model makes my head explode.

 

 

argh...looks very good..in a good dark map it could improve so much

 

every time i look at th skyrim trailer i think come on that looks so much better. But here and there i think i can also get near to this level in my map but then the performance is the killer...thats so depressing and i have no compulsion to map the level for tdm...

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argh...looks very good..in a good dark map it could improve so much

 

every time i look at th skyrim trailer i think come on that looks so much better. But here and there i think i can also get near to this level in my map but then the performance is the killer...thats so depressing and i have no compulsion to map the level for tdm...

 

Just work within the confines of the technology, your work is amazing for what is available to you. You may not like it 100% but believe me, you are one of a few people who can eek out that much visual glory from IDTech4

I always assumed I'd taste like boot leather.

 

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I made a youtube video with Sikk's POM, and just thinking about all those polys from a model makes my head explode.

 

 

Er? Those are just textures? Not models? Such details without added polies? When technology is high enough, it indeed is indistinguishable from magic!:P

 

(Can we have those for tdm, pretty pretty please...:laugh:)

Clipper

-The mapper's best friend.

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Er? Those are just textures? Not models? Such details without added polies? When technology is high enough, it indeed is indistinguishable from magic!:P

 

(Can we have those for tdm, pretty pretty please...:laugh:)

 

Yes those are just textures. It's an expensive rendering pass though.

I always assumed I'd taste like boot leather.

 

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what does that mean ? You love me ?

 

I love your lack of tact with the English language. You do realize that almost all increase in visual fidelity over the last 10 years has to do with textures and processing on said textures more so than increases in geometry complexity?

I always assumed I'd taste like boot leather.

 

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yes

 

So why do you say "why people like those stuff as textures : what if I throw rock in wall thats painted with thats texture ? it just impact like with flat wall...that sucks" ?

 

Sure the lack of physical geometry can negatively affect realism vis-à-vis physics systems, but that is not a reason for developers to stop trying to add fidelity to a scene by processing textures in a different way. Just recently and I mean in the last few months have we reached a point where POM might be replaced by tessellation, and I agree that's a good thing.

But what about everyone else on DX9/10 cards? This is a viable alternative and one that can be explored to give some more visual oomph to an aging architecture.

I always assumed I'd taste like boot leather.

 

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From my experience tesselation is way too taxing on performance whereas POM is perfectly doable and great looking, as long as very good heightmaps are available and the diffusemaps are of high resolution (See Crysis for example). I even played minecraft with POM. :D

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Also, if you look at the parallax textures for Oblivion (back in the days) you'll notice that they look great while at the same time are playable on a rig that's several years old. So the performance impact can't be *that* great, can it?

My Eigenvalue is bigger than your Eigenvalue.

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i also think that pom is a real good thing for this...after playing around with texture making, it is in some cases really easy to create good looking ones, f e:

 

post-3575-130141943253_thumb.jpg

 

 

(not the pest screen at all)

 

but normal stonewalls never looks sooo good...here and there a bit 3d but a pom should do this MUCH !!! better

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I dunno why people like those stuff as textures : what if I throw rock in wall thats painted with thats texture ? it just impact like with flat wall...that sucks

 

The wall will be very likely flat for the collision with tesselation, too (because otherwise it would be way too expensive).

 

I prefer Johannes's patchwork :)

 

Which will likely use simplified CMs for collision, too...

"The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man." -- George Bernard Shaw (1856 - 1950)

 

"Remember: If the game lets you do it, it's not cheating." -- Xarax

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i also think that pom is a real good thing for this...after playing around with texture making, it is in some cases really easy to create good looking ones, f e:

 

post-3575-130141943253_thumb.jpg

 

 

(not the pest screen at all)

 

but normal stonewalls never looks sooo good...here and there a bit 3d but a pom should do this MUCH !!! better

 

OMG I love that texture! Can you mail it to me along with the material decl so I can add to SVN?

I always assumed I'd taste like boot leather.

 

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I think the primary rationale for a performance-hit limit for additional graphic options is that TDM is targeted to have approximately the performance hit of it's rival TDS. If we compare TDM to Oblivion then Oblivion is more taxing so adding in comparable effects would then be valid but then we risk TDS mission authors or mission authors on the fence going to (or staying with) TDS rather than have an even more narrow hardware install base.

 

Then we have the issue of nVidia and ATI Drivers, the Doom 3 installation itself, and all the meat-and-potatoes stuff that a ton of users either get wrong or have problems with.

 

If you add new effects there are bound to be more of these reports... :wacko:

Please visit TDM's IndieDB site and help promote the mod:

 

http://www.indiedb.com/mods/the-dark-mod

 

(Yeah, shameless promotion... but traffic is traffic folks...)

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There is already a mod team that has integrated POM into Sikkpin's "Test-5" shaders (essentially the pre-release candidate for Sikkmod 1.0). Since Sikkpin's HDR shader is derivative of JC Denton's and TRSGM's (and other D3W) shader experts' code, it should be possible to cross-compare the interaction shader for that mod with TDM's pretty easily and insert the POM effect at the correct stage as they have done. (It may even be pretty easy without that reference... haven't had time to fiddle with it...)

 

Doom 3's flexible PK4 override system means that FM authors do not need to limit themselves if they are enterprising enough to put in the effort.

 

The big problem here is that we get two performance modes:

 

1) Super low-ender ugly

2) Pretty... but you'd better have Oblivion class hardware (or better) for even the most modest FM's

 

Then the TDM team would need to bake height-maps into the Normal Map alpha channel and that would be yet another expansive asset update project (like the ill-fated "baked AO" concept). Or mission sizes would balloon with custom texture packs for POM or Parallax (etc).

 

 

Edit:

 

I suppose another alternative would be to chop-off the low-enders and have modes:

 

1) Current TDM high-end mode

2) Ultra-extreme "Johannes" mode

 

:laugh:

Edited by nbohr1more

Please visit TDM's IndieDB site and help promote the mod:

 

http://www.indiedb.com/mods/the-dark-mod

 

(Yeah, shameless promotion... but traffic is traffic folks...)

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ok, i gave the tex...if someone else want to have it, some body can upload it anywhere ? or bring it on the way to the next version ?

 

It's in SVN right now, I uploaded it last night. It might be included in 1.05 or a later release. :) Thanks, it looks really nice in game.

I always assumed I'd taste like boot leather.

 

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Yeah...

 

The interaction.vfp that Sikkpin uses in his POM example is wildly divergent from TDM's. The order in which the ambient term is calculated is opposite and many of the variables have different names and or are additive of combined stages at different phases than TDM's. The POM portion itself is isolated and commented so if the input can be determined than you could still likely paste it in with only a few changes but the other stuff would need to be deciphered to determined what is the the input and output of that segment...

 

A bigger problem, however, is that I believe POM hooks into the normal map interaction and thus would only be visible for real lights... the the surface becomes 2D when an ambient light is applied to it ...or (possibly worse) the parallax direction is frozen at the time the normal shading is baked to the ambient... :wacko:

 

Right now the only practical way I could imagine having this in a map is to make the map without the use of ambient light which most folks would complain about for the same reasons they complained about the lighting in Vanilla Doom 3... (Plus performance would take a double-whammy for lots of "real" lights and POM). :wacko:

Edited by nbohr1more

Please visit TDM's IndieDB site and help promote the mod:

 

http://www.indiedb.com/mods/the-dark-mod

 

(Yeah, shameless promotion... but traffic is traffic folks...)

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It's in SVN right now, I uploaded it last night. It might be included in 1.05 or a later release. :) Thanks, it looks really nice in game.

Texture is 2024 x 2048 px. Probably that's why all mipmaps from 3rd up are messed up:

 

post-2001-130152049361_thumb.jpg

 

DDS has alpha holes in it:

 

post-2001-130152046615_thumb.jpg

 

Also the quality doesn't justify such big resolution. 1024 x 1024 would be enough.

It's only a model...

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