Thief TDP and Thief TMA

[Durad]

Hey all, I was wondering, is anyone trying to recreate Thief 1 or 2 on TDM? I ask because none of my newer computers can run the first Thiefs, and pretty soon my ancient laptop is gonna die (and with it my ability to play my favorite games). If no one is working on it, why? The complexity? Are there copyright issues?

[Springheel]

Are there copyright issues?

 

Bingo.

[jaxa]

People over at TTLG are working on it, see here for more details: http://modetwo.net/d...p-cover-source/

 

In the meantime, TafferPatcher is one of the best solutions for creating a new working installation on modern machines.

 

http://www.ttlg.com/forums/showthread.php?t=131106

 

Looks like there's an update on the last page of the thread, so skim the pages.

Edited July 7, 2011 by jaxa

[Durad]

Bingo.

 

So, is it illegal to make one or distribute one? Also, what exactly is it that is copyrighted/trademarked? The name?

[New Horizon]

So, is it illegal to make one or distribute one? Also, what exactly is it that is copyrighted/trademarked? The name?

 

It is illegal to recreate original Thief levels in another engine. It's actually illegal to port Thief 1 levels into Thief 2. You're asking about porting original Thief levels into a competing companies game engine. Think about the consequences of doing that.

[Mortem Desino]

It's a complete game. Everything in it (including intellectual property, like the characters & factions) is protected by copyright.

 

So you don't have the right to copy.

 

Personally, I'd rather play new missions than re-play thief for the dozenth time.

[jdude]

Personally, I'd rather play new missions than re-play thief for the dozenth time.

 

I agree. People tend to think updated graphics will bring back he first feelings they had playing the old games they loved, but it doesn't. The good times are over for good and we need new content

[Glyph Seeker]

I agree. People tend to think updated graphics will bring back he first feelings they had playing the old games they loved, but it doesn't. The good times are over for good and we need new content

 

Couldn't have put it better, myself. I've tried reinstalling and playing games on my new computer with maxed graphics and texture packs but it still "isn't the same". There are approaching 50 TDM missions, and more than a handful of them are equivalent to old Thief missions - and Lord there must be hundreds of DromEd FMs out there, seems kind of crazy to want to replay the game yet again. x-D

 

In addition, it's not simply a matter of "porting" - it's rebuilding, with LOADS of missing assets... Think about the Burricks, Steam Beasts, Fire Elementals, Frog Beasts, Tree Monsters, Pagan Monsters - everything which doesn't have a model or texturing.

 

If anyone had the will to be making stuff like that - I'd hope it would be for new and unique enemies in Bridgeport, rather than for a game I could play in my sleep. x-D

[Durad]

It is illegal to recreate original Thief levels in another engine. It's actually illegal to port Thief 1 levels into Thief 2. You're asking about porting original Thief levels into a competing companies game engine. Think about the consequences of doing that.

 

Oh, thanks.

That really sucks...lol You'd think that after all this time they would either let people use the source code to allow Thief 2 to run on modern computers, or they would do it themselves.

 

How can it be though that you cannot create a burrick on the Dark Mod, yet people can make entire Lord of the Rings modifications for Total War and Battlefield games? That doesn't make much sense. Is it just that the people at Eidios are being arseholes Nazis about enforcing it?

 

 

[New Horizon]

Is it just that the people at Eidios are being arseholes Nazis about enforcing it?

 

Eidos hasn't said anything directly to anyone about doing it...however...the community respects their intellectual property, so it's not something we're willing to do.

[Baddcog]

Oh, thanks.

That really sucks...lol You'd think that after all this time they would either let people use the source code to allow Thief 2 to run on modern computers, or they would do it themselves.

 

How can it be though that you cannot create a burrick on the Dark Mod, yet people can make entire Lord of the Rings modifications for Total War and Battlefield games? That doesn't make much sense. Is it just that the people at Eidios are being arseholes Nazis about enforcing it?

 

 

 

The same copywrite protection exists for all games/movies.

 

If someone wants to make a LoTR game in another engine they would be taking the same legal risks as if we remade Thief in TDM.

Non of us want to take that risk, and the majority of us don't want to play the originals all over again. If so we don't mind the graphics of the original to do it anyway.

 

But I don't know of anyone who wants to spend the huge amount of time to recreate the originals when we can just make our own missions instead.

[Durad]

Ah, thanks.

[Melan]

It would be completely okay to recreate burricks, though - "two-legged lizards who live in caves and belch poison gas" is not something you can copyright.

[New Horizon]

It would be completely okay to recreate burricks, though - "two-legged lizards who live in caves and belch poison gas" is not something you can copyright.

 

We do have that Belcher model...whether it gets rigged, animated and put ingame is anther matter though.

[Durad]

Ok, well I've contacted Eidos to ask their permission to remake Thief: TMA on the Dark Mod...it cannot hurt, right? My team and I (we mostly do M&B and Total War mods) are all avid Thief fans and most of us used to create Thief fan missions, and this is something we have been talking about for a while. Hopefully we will get permission for it. In the meanwhile I sent our coder the link to this site so she can examine the code to TDM and start making a new build specifically for this project...just in case...

[Melan]

You will not receive a permission, if you receive a response at all. I can tell that much even if I am not Eidos. It is also not a project the TDM team could support, or be associated with.

[Durad]

You will not receive a permission, if you receive a response at all. I can tell that much even if I am not Eidos. It is also not a project the TDM team could support, or be associated with.

 

I understand that, but you would let us use your mod to build it on if we got permission, wouldn't you? You are probably right that we will not get permission, but it won't hurt anything to try. When my old XP laptop bites the dust (it is 5 1/2 years old), I don't want to be faced with the prospect of never playing Thief 2 again. I want to go back to making Thief missions, so even if I do not get permission, I may make a different project (unrelated to Thief) on the Darkmod instead. Either way, I will let you know what they tell me.

 

 

 

[New Horizon]

Ok, well I've contacted Eidos to ask their permission to remake Thief: TMA on the Dark Mod...it cannot hurt, right?

 

Do you not think you should have asked us first before proposing such a project to Eidos? We can't stop you from making whatever project you want, but you should have at least asked us first before contacting Eidos for their permission. We've already exasperatingly covered why it's not legal for us to do so...and that TDM is built on a competitors engine. They're never going to grant permission to remake their game 'for free' on another companies engine!

 

Knowing the way Eidos, or any commercial entity sees their intellectual property, they will likely completely misunderstand and think "The Dark Mod is a remake of Thief 2 on the doom 3 engine" and issue cease and desist orders.

[New Horizon]

I understand that, but you would let us use your mod to build it on if we got permission, wouldn't you?

 

If you had asked us about approaching Eidos, I'm pretty sure the team would have said, "please don't".

[Durad]

If you had asked us about approaching Eidos, I'm pretty sure the team would have said, "please don't".

 

Well, I apologize for that then. I thought the mod was something that someone could make any mission they wanted on. I had planned to ask your team for permission if Eidos gave us permission. I was not aware that I did it backwards. I apologize, however I did make it clear to Eidos that I was not part of the Dark Mod team and did not give them any reason to believe that I was working in conjunction with you guys.

 

 

 

[Tels]

I understand that, but you would let us use your mod to build it on if we got permission, wouldn't you?

 

The source code of The Dark Mod is under a free license - you can do whatever you want with it as long as you obey this license. Parts of the source are licensed under a different license from id software, tho, so you need to obey their license, too.

 

The art assets are under a different license, and you must obey this license, too.

 

(Sorry, I can't tell you the exact licenses atm, but it is AFAIK Creative Commons for source and art, and id license for id portions of the code. The LICENSE file in each TDM installation lists them for you.)

 

Otherwise, you are free to do what you want. Personally, however, I do not want to have TDM associated with the original games even more - it is already bad enough that almost every news about TDM starts wrongly with "recreates Thief in D3". TDM is not Thief. It is The Dark Mod.

[Durad]

The source code of The Dark Mod is under a free license - you can do whatever you want with it as long as you obey this license. Parts of the source are licensed under a different license from id software, tho, so you need to obey their license, too.

 

The art assets are under a different license, and you must obey this license, too.

 

(Sorry, I can't tell you the exact licenses atm, but it is AFAIK Creative Commons for source and art, and id license for id portions of the code. The LICENSE file in each TDM installation lists them for you.)

 

Otherwise, you are free to do what you want. Personally, however, I do not want to have TDM associated with the original games even more - it is already bad enough that almost every news about TDM starts wrongly with "recreates Thief in D3". TDM is not Thief. It is The Dark Mod.

 

I understand that, but if we did this, it would only be one of the many mission packs available for the Dark Mod. Honestly, I am a Thief fanatic and would love to build an engine from scratch and remake Thief 2, but neither I nor anyone has the time or resources to do that. Therefore, if I was too get permission and make a mod recreating Thief 2 with better graphics, etc., I would need a similar enough base. Honestly, Thievery just would not work, whereas the Dark Mod already has so much work put into it that it would be a perfect choice if I did such a project.

[New Horizon]

Honestly, I am a Thief fanatic and would love to build an engine from scratch and remake Thief 2, but neither I nor anyone has the time or resources to do that.

 

I would simply wait for Eidos to grant permission to use the leaked Thief 2 source code from a year and a half ago. At least then no remaking will be required. Whether Eidos will ever grant permission for that remains to be seen however, considering the community has been patiently waiting for over a year and a half for them to grant it.

[jdude]

I understand that, but if we did this, it would only be one of the many mission packs available for the Dark Mod. Honestly, I am a Thief fanatic and would love to build an engine from scratch and remake Thief 2, but neither I nor anyone has the time or resources to do that. Therefore, if I was too get permission and make a mod recreating Thief 2 with better graphics, etc., I would need a similar enough base. Honestly, Thievery just would not work, whereas the Dark Mod already has so much work put into it that it would be a perfect choice if I did such a project.

 

I think you may be under estimating how hard it is to create a quality map, and how hard it will be to recreate the voices, AI, scripted sequences, new enemies etc. But if you were to set out to do that, that's fine by me. However I do not like that you contacted Eidos, and I hope you differentiated yourself in your email so they know you are NOT a member of the official TDM team.

[Springheel]

Maybe you should try creating a single small (legal) mission for TDM before you start planning grandiose projects that require huge amounts of animating, vocal recording, video editing and modelling, on top of normal mapping tasks. I'm not sure you have any idea of the amount of work you're talking about taking on, even if you were to get permission to go ahead (which will never happen).