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Durad

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It might not hurt, depending on how you worded your first email to Eidos, to send a follow-up to Eidos specifically saying that not only is this your own project not associated with the Dark Mod team in any way, but the Dark Mod team itself actually advised you to "please not" use the Dark Mod to violate Eidos's copyright in any way, and advised you that it has a strict, absolute policy of no copyright violations. (... which we are advising and we do have.)

 

It's understandable that you didn't think about it ahead of time. The TDM has just gone to such lengths to avoid anything even remotely a copyright issue, down to the actual textures and sounds, and it just has to make its absolute stance clear as an official matter.

 

But you asking in your personal capacity is your own responsibility, of course, once that's cleared up. Maybe they'll give you a personal license, who knows; but considering Thief4 is right on the horizon I think the chances are next to nil (think what a license to use Hammerites means when there may be Hammerites in T4). Then you have to be even more careful because then they've already said no and now are on notice and watching.

 

Of course all of this is mostly about if you want to distribute the thing. If you're just talking about making a map that will always just stay on your harddrive, for you to play around personally with, that's not distributing. But that's a lot of work just for yourself.

 

BTW, why not make "inspired" maps that refer to classic maps but don't take anything copyrightable? Not only less a copyright issue, but possibly more fun for fans since it's new territory, but they'll catch the homages.

What do you see when you turn out the light? I can't tell you but I know that it's mine.

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Maybe you should try creating a single small (legal) mission for TDM before you start panning grandiose projects that require huge amounts of animating, vocal recording, video editing and modelling, on top of normal mapping tasks. I'm not sure you have any idea of the amount of work you're talking about taking on, even if you were to get permission to go ahead (which will never happen).

I do realize. I have modded many games before, including doing TCs. I know how hard it is to learn a new engine, and I know how much goes into that. (I have been a skinner, score-composer, sound designer, 2-d art designer, tester, concept artist, and team leader on mod teams before) I am not saying I am great, or that I would do a really good job at it, but I do have an idea of the scope, and I am well aware that many more things always need to be done than what you plan for. The good thing is that the core of the people who would be working on it are my brothers and sisters (all passionate Thief fans). (My sister has been a contract programmer for an insurance firm for a few years, and has spent the last 5 years working full time as a programmer for a clinic, and is also an avid modder and gamer. She is the one who would be doing the coding.)

 

We may succeed or we may crash and burn, but if we get the right permissions, I would sure love to give it a try.

 

 

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The less he writes to them, the better. And anyway, the worst that can happen is a C&D by Squenix followed by prompt response from the community, "pressuring" Eidos Montreal who will, after a long and arduous battle (read: one email to their legal department) be touted as saviours of the spirit of Thief by giving TDM their blessing.

 

In conclusion, who cares. It's likely Durad will not even manage to get through all the editing wiki before giving up.

Edited by Briareos H
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It might not hurt, depending on how you worded your first email to Eidos, to send a follow-up to Eidos specifically saying that not only is this your own project not associated with the Dark Mod team in any way, but the Dark Mod team itself actually advised you to "please not" use the Dark Mod to violate Eidos's copyright in any way, and advised you that it has a strict, absolute policy of no copyright violations. (... which we are advising and we do have.)

 

It's understandable that you didn't think about it ahead of time. The TDM has just gone to such lengths to avoid anything even remotely a copyright issue, down to the actual textures and sounds, and it just has to make its absolute stance clear as an official matter.

 

But you asking in your personal capacity is your own responsibility, of course, once that's cleared up. Maybe they'll give you a personal license, who knows; but considering Thief4 is right on the horizon I think the chances are next to nil (think what a license to use Hammerites means when there may be Hammerites in T4). Then you have to be even more careful because then they've already said no and now are on notice and watching.

 

Of course all of this is mostly about if you want to distribute the thing. If you're just talking about making a map that will always just stay on your harddrive, for you to play around personally with, that's not distributing. But that's a lot of work just for yourself.

 

BTW, why not make "inspired" maps that refer to classic maps but don't take anything copyrightable? Not only less a copyright issue, but possibly more fun for fans since it's new territory, but they'll catch the homages.

 

 

 

 

Very well, I will send a follow up email to make that clear to them, and then I will post what I sent them here.

 

 

Actually, we had planned (most of the people I have talked to about this are in my immediate or close family) to keep it 'in-house' and not distribute it, but then we thought, why not let other people enjoy it if we can?

 

If we do not get the permission, we will probably still develop it and keep it in-house. (though we may try to get a modeller involved as that is the weak spot of the team, and there are a lot of complicated models that need to be made)

 

When we were first talking about this, we estimated that it would take about 3 years to make (we all work full-time jobs), but honestly, after looking some stuff over I am thinking it would probably be closer to 4.

 

 

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The less he writes to them, the better. And anyway, the worst that can happen is a C&D by Squenix followed by prompt response from the community, "pressuring" Eidos Montreal who will, after a long and arduous battle (read: one email to their legal department) be touted as saviours of the spirit of Thief by giving TDM their blessing.

 

In conclusion, who cares. It's likely Durad will not even manage to get through all the editing wiki before giving up.

 

I sent them another email especially for Briareos. ;)

 

 

Hello, and sorry for sending a second email. I posted that I contacted you on the Dark Mod forums and some concerns were raised by some of the members. I would just like to clear them up so there is no confusion. Myself and the people who want to make this mod with me are not working with and have no relation to the Dark Mod team. They are very strict about making sure all modders using their mod are aware of copyright issues and do not violate Eidos's copyright.

 

The project is the idea of myself and some other modders (none of whom are on the Dark Mod team), and hinges on obtaining permission from you to continue.

 

I apologize if I did not make that clear in the first email,

 

***** ****

 

 

 

 

 

 

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While waiting for a reply that will probably never come, how about contributing something for mappers, like some models or sounds.

 

Like dis: http://modetwo.net/d...nosslaks-stuff/

 

I actually don't know how to model. I have worked closely with some very good modelers (like Meliteros from the totalwar.org), but I cannot model to save my life. I am a pretty decent skinner though. If we are given the green light, everything we use on the project will be available for the community to use. Otherwise, I have other mods on other games that I will probably go back to working on.

 

 

 

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you can always trust someone to turn up and introduce the cease and stop nail in a coffin on any independant game, you always wonder if they do it on purpose because they didn't think of the concept themselves, so they just come and spoil it for everyone else.

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...you always wonder if they do it on purpose because they didn't think of the concept themselves, so they just come and spoil it for everyone else.

That's a bit harsh, and obviously not what's going on here. It's already been said, but I agree that it seems largely futile to try and recreate the Thief games in a newer engine for nostalgic reasons. If you've already played and loved Thief TDP and TMA then you can still play them now (try Tafferpatcher maybe?) and you'll still enjoy them.

 

The only reason why an older game might warrant being ported to a newer engine is if you want to attract new players who've never experienced the originals and might be put off by the older graphics. Purely from a mapping point of view this task would be immense. Many of the original levels had areas or rooms that were fairly bland, but they worked because of the engine. A more capable engine such as D3 demands more detail, you simply couldn't get away with recreating Thief in a modern engine without also investing a significant amount of time on re-designing each level.

 

To pull this off you'd need an army of mappers, but I think most TDM mappers would rather explore a new universe and create their own stories.

Edited by Midnight
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I have previously considered recreating a small map of mine in TDM. It would have been doable, but as I took stock of the original, I realised it would have been very hard even on such a small scale. Some textures I used and were important to the feel of the level were missing; the same goes for AI (I would have needed a Builder Novice, and there isn't one right now), particles and sound. So if I remade the mission, it would feel significantly different. If you want to do it on the scale of an OM, the task becomes really Quixotic. You would need a group of excellent texture artists just to get started, for example.

 

So yeah, I think hommage missions are the way to go. I would love to see something with the complexity of Assassins on a modern engine.

Come the time of peril, did the ground gape, and did the dead rest unquiet 'gainst us. Our bands of iron and hammers of stone prevailed not, and some did doubt the Builder's plan. But the seals held strong, and the few did triumph, and the doubters were lain into the foundations of the new sanctum. -- Collected letters of the Smith-in-Exile, Civitas Approved

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Melan says something very valid here about the feel of missions. Some of the levels in Thief 1 were barely more than a few textured blocks, so the visual atmosphere and feel came in large part from the textures. You're a skinner, so how about starting by making high-resolution Thief 1-like textures keeping the same colour tones, type of material, etc.

 

More textures to choose from would definitely benefit the community and if you make them relatively seriously I don't see what kind of legal problems anyone could face. Those would be "inspired by the visual experience of Thief".

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@Bikerdude: It's more of a "please make that map for me" idea than "I would like to do make that map". After I am finished with our current project, I would like to do a non-city mission for a change.

 

@Briareos H: Yeah, new textures would be excellent. We have good bricks, metals, windows and now trims (with more to come - my submissions are in Serpentine's hands), but Thief had a lot of detailed textures that can't be replicated from photosources... partly because there are no photos like that. Stuff like Dave Gurrea's texture work, that would do the mod good.

Come the time of peril, did the ground gape, and did the dead rest unquiet 'gainst us. Our bands of iron and hammers of stone prevailed not, and some did doubt the Builder's plan. But the seals held strong, and the few did triumph, and the doubters were lain into the foundations of the new sanctum. -- Collected letters of the Smith-in-Exile, Civitas Approved

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i think to dmap in assasins size map in TDM you need at least 6 gb ram

I would love to see something with the complexity of Assassins on a modern engine.

me too,but idTech4 is aint modern engine

first and biggest problem of TDM is perfomance

Proceed with caution!

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i think to dmap in assasins size map in TDM you need at least 6 gb ram

 

I'll ask Dram how much ram he has, because Blackheart Manor is a monster but it can still be dmapped.

 

me too,but idTech4 is aint modern engine

 

The term 'modern' is a relative statement as idtech4 is more modern than darkengine, or say System Shock 1.

 

first and biggest problem of TDM is perfomance

 

That too is relative to individual system specs. For some it plays as smooth as silk. My laptop isn't the latest or greatest, but it plays quite well on it. However, once we have the source code there will likely be a few things that can be improved...such as loading times, and how our lighting enhancements are integrated. On my old Athlon XP 2600 with 2 gigs of ram, and a geforce 5200fx my TDM performance (with ambient simple and normal interaction...equivalent to TDS light tech) was as good as TDS...and more often than not better. We know it's not going to be perfect right now, but we'll deal with that when we have the code to work with.

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@Durad

 

OK, I can see you're driven with this idea and you have some people you know who want to help out and have mod experience. Please consider though - that you're kind of... making problems for yourself by wanting to recreate a game... If you spent 3 or 4 years on it, do you think it would be worth it, in the end? If you spent that time and energy on The Dark Mod as it now stands, you could have created a brand new campaign... Not bound by Garrett and the Trickster and the Keepers. You could make your own character, have him plundering new tombs and strange, Pagan horrors, scaling Necromancers' towers and picking his way through the ruins of the Plague Quarter...

 

We've all played Return to the Haunted Cathedral a dozen times...

 

Wouldn't you like to be making something from your own imagination rather than living in the past?

 

Think of all the mods like Arx: End of Sun that could really use some help as well... TDM gives you the freedom to make your own characters, factions, enemies and locations, even your own history and mythology in the Empire...

 

Just want you and your guys to think about that. =-/

"No proposition Euclid wrote,

No formulae the text-books know,

Will turn the bullet from your coat,

Or ward the tulwar's downward blow

Strike hard who cares—shoot straight who can—

The odds are on the cheaper man."

 

From 'Arithmetic on the Frontier' by Rudyard Kipling

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i think to dmap in assasins size map in TDM you need at least 6 gb ram

It seems to depend on a number of factors, only some of which are brush-related. A huge level with tons of brushes but few entities will compile fine on a less efficient PC, while if every wine bottle is moveable and every lantern is swaying in the wind, that will need computing power (and you will end up hitting the entity/collision limits). That said, it would be possible to create an Assassins-sized mission in TDM. Assassins itself is huge, but it isn't full of objects. The same with Bonehoard.

 

me too,but idTech4 is aint modern engine

first and biggest problem of TDM is perfomance

I know this sounds unfair, but on semi-contemporary hardware, it runs fine enough.

Come the time of peril, did the ground gape, and did the dead rest unquiet 'gainst us. Our bands of iron and hammers of stone prevailed not, and some did doubt the Builder's plan. But the seals held strong, and the few did triumph, and the doubters were lain into the foundations of the new sanctum. -- Collected letters of the Smith-in-Exile, Civitas Approved

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Ok everyone, I just wanted to say that I am sorry if my proposal has caused any trouble. I have been speaking (well...PMing) with one of the team members, and he has convinced me not to pursue the project anymore. It is a disappointment for me, but I think that it is for the better.

 

 

 

@Durad

 

OK, I can see you're driven with this idea and you have some people you know who want to help out and have mod experience. Please consider though - that you're kind of... making problems for yourself by wanting to recreate a game... If you spent 3 or 4 years on it, do you think it would be worth it, in the end? If you spent that time and energy on The Dark Mod as it now stands, you could have created a brand new campaign... Not bound by Garrett and the Trickster and the Keepers. You could make your own character, have him plundering new tombs and strange, Pagan horrors, scaling Necromancers' towers and picking his way through the ruins of the Plague Quarter...

 

We've all played Return to the Haunted Cathedral a dozen times...

 

Wouldn't you like to be making something from your own imagination rather than living in the past?

 

Think of all the mods like Arx: End of Sun that could really use some help as well... TDM gives you the freedom to make your own characters, factions, enemies and locations, even your own history and mythology in the Empire...

 

Just want you and your guys to think about that. =-/

 

Would it be worth it? In a word, yes. We were going to start with a purist version (ei, as close to Thief 2 as possible), and then with that base, we were going to work on an improved version that would have had many of the things that we have always wanted to see in a Thief game (such as the ability for a mapper to plot "emergency plans" for the AI to follow (for instance, an alarm is sounded, an assigned group of guards search all the rooms in the building they were scripted to, as all civilians make their way (escorted by the remaining guards) to a chosen "safe-room", which would then be locked and have all entrances guarded by the guards who just escorted them. After the building was searched and no threats were found, a certain amount of the patrolling guards would be stationed at the building's entrance on high-alert, and things would otherwise go back to normal. It would be very scripting intensive for the mapper, but could be worth it for large, heavily guarded manors and complexes with advanced security. That was something that my sis was going to try to make work (and when my sis tries to make something work, it always happens :P).), torch bearing AI, Shields, Pole-arms, improved combat, etc, etc.

 

 

Honestly, I am not nearly as interested in creating a rip-off storyline in a rip-off world of the Thief world. I would much rather preserve and improve Thief. Yes, I like fan-missions, but usually the fun goofy ones (like A Mother's Love...my fav), not the intense story-line driven ones. When it comes to them, Thief has never been out-done.

 

That said, I have my own ideas for a great stealth game that I would love to make (honestly, with a few modifications, I think it would make a perfect Thief 4), but the problem is that my team is not interested in helping me with it. The thing we have in common is a love of Thief, other than that, we all have our own ideas about our own games. :P I work a full time job, and don't have nearly as much time as I used to to mod. I probably could not put the time into a mod with a different team in order to keep it together.

 

Anyway, I have decided to cancel the project, so it does not matter now. I have mods on other games that have been in a state of stasis for months now that I have to continue.

 

 

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I agree. People tend to think updated graphics will bring back he first feelings they had playing the old games they loved, but it doesn't. The good times are over for good and we need new content :P

 

No. It's about keeping Thief alive on modern systems and for the future, which TDM is a surrogate for, and which FMs aren't addressing directly, because they are best used to explore new ideas, so that's well covered, though not thoroughly. Until we see whether T4 brings Thief into the present and how much further beyond that, or not, there is no gaming experience like the official games, but the official games, and keeping them available for whenever one wishes to revisit, like putting on a favorite movie, looking through a family album, taking a walk through the woods, listening to a favorite band's old album, having a get together with longtime chums, being able to play a favorite game now, and hopefully at least once more in the future, is nothing unusual and not even sentimental in many ways, but one of a thousand sources of guaranteed joy and comfort for little while. Playing any game to death is just gluttonous.

 

There's no faith in, and no evidence for, more games coming that will provide more of the same for as long as the person finds them enjoyable and meaningful. The fact that video games have a shelf-life and expire before those enjoying them are ready to give them up--unlike most other kinds of games, played all one's life, passed on generation to generation for centuries, never get old and aren't taken away from most in a brief span of time--is something that someone needs to find a way to improve, or games should be dumbed-the-hell-down so they don't linger.

 

The copyright issue of porting whole games is that it would mean no one would have to buy the original game ever again, since they could just play the ported mod for another game. It's a threat to future sales. And then there's the potentially unpaid, unaccounted for usage, of pieces and parts of the originals.

Edited by jtr7

A skunk was badgered--the results were strong.

I hope that something better comes along.

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Anyway the best way for a game to have an indefinite shelf-life is from the sourcecode. If we can decrypt 2000 year old Mayan hieroglyphs than I think we'll always be able to decrypt code and retool it for whatever system they have in the future (to someone ready to do the work). And getting it from the source is better than reverse engineering or a re-make, for precisely that desire to get back in touch with the original in some way, like a classic book.

 

@Durad, you probably have the right intuition. Doing an grand ambitious project is always *tough work* as it is, but it's even harder when you're working with a team because people have different expectations about what they want to do, and when you have a strong personal vision it's probably better if you have projects you're doing by yourself, so you can realize your own vision without compromise. And I think the project will turn out better for it. It would be nice, even if you don't contribute towards TDM, if you stick around the community and continue to play Dark Mod FMs.

What do you see when you turn out the light? I can't tell you but I know that it's mine.

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Arrrgh.

 

Deleted due to nerd rage.

Edited by Glyph Seeker

"No proposition Euclid wrote,

No formulae the text-books know,

Will turn the bullet from your coat,

Or ward the tulwar's downward blow

Strike hard who cares—shoot straight who can—

The odds are on the cheaper man."

 

From 'Arithmetic on the Frontier' by Rudyard Kipling

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the Thief games are supposed to be coming to Onlive sometime later this year, that's pretty cool. I'm a big Onlive fan, a very nice cloud gaming service (a slight bit of lag involved, but it doesn't bother me and I have plenty of fun with the games)

shadowdark50.gif keep50.gif
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No. It's about keeping Thief alive on modern systems and for the future, which TDM is a surrogate for, and which FMs aren't addressing directly, because they are best used to explore new ideas, so that's well covered, though not thoroughly. Until we see whether T4 brings Thief into the present and how much further beyond that, or not, there is no gaming experience like the official games, but the official games, and keeping them available for whenever one wishes to revisit, like putting on a favorite movie, looking through a family album, taking a walk through the woods, listening to a favorite band's old album, having a get together with longtime chums, being able to play a favorite game now, and hopefully at least once more in the future, is nothing unusual and not even sentimental in many ways, but one of a thousand sources of guaranteed joy and comfort for little while. Playing any game to death is just gluttonous.

 

There's no faith in, and no evidence for, more games coming that will provide more of the same for as long as the person finds them enjoyable and meaningful. The fact that video games have a shelf-life and expire before those enjoying them are ready to give them up--unlike most other kinds of games, played all one's life, passed on generation to generation for centuries, never get old and aren't taken away from most in a brief span of time--is something that someone needs to find a way to improve, or games should be dumbed-the-hell-down so they don't linger.

 

The copyright issue of porting whole games is that it would mean no one would have to buy the original game ever again, since they could just play the ported mod for another game. It's a threat to future sales. And then there's the potentially unpaid, unaccounted for usage, of pieces and parts of the originals.

 

Thief 1 and 2 already run on modern systems. The only possible outcome of 'porting' these games to TDM is literally just enhanced graphics and the ability to knock over crates here and there. If people don't want to play thief because it's old, so be it. Thief exists purely for entertainment, by them not playing it we aren't losing anything. Also your likely only going to attract people from the existing Thief / TDM community to try the port anyways. Who else would buy Doom3 and install this mod for it? I'd be very interested to see how many people on this forum and even TTLG have never played Thief 1 or 2.

 

I appreciate your passion and enthusiasm but I think ultimately this project would result in disappointment for the developers and community. I've kicked the idea around myself many times. But that effort should be placed into something new. Surely you could design a TDM campaign using your favorite game play elements transferred from T1 and T2 to a new game or work on a really good story for TDM instead of just out right copying the game.

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Surely you could design a TDM campaign using your favorite game play elements transferred from T1 and T2 to a new game or work on a really good story for TDM instead of just out right copying the game.

 

My deleted post was a burst of exasperation on just that point - because I already raised that idea and his response was:

 

"Honestly, I am not nearly as interested in creating a rip-off storyline in a rip-off world of the Thief world."

 

Urgh...

 

Then go and join the endless line of unfinished mods with a dozen weapon renders in the images section of ModDB.

Edited by Glyph Seeker

"No proposition Euclid wrote,

No formulae the text-books know,

Will turn the bullet from your coat,

Or ward the tulwar's downward blow

Strike hard who cares—shoot straight who can—

The odds are on the cheaper man."

 

From 'Arithmetic on the Frontier' by Rudyard Kipling

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