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Patrol Routes in FMs


SeriousToni

  

19 members have voted

  1. 1. Which one do you enjoy more?

    • static patrols
      7
    • dynamic patrols
      12


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Hey thiefs,

 

I wondered which patrol style most players like. Of course you may like both of them, but that's not the question of course :D

 

static patrols: Like in the Thief series guards follow a constant route with no (or only a few) variations. Or they stand at a place and turn around in definite times.

 

dynamic patrols: Guards move along random routes (where they come to cruches and randomly make a choise in which direction they move next). They also stand and wait at some points for a random period of time.

 

Which one do you enjoy more in gameplay?

 

Thanks for replying!

Edited by SeriousToni

"Einen giftigen Trank aus Kräutern und Wurzeln für die närrischen Städter wollen wir brauen." - Text aus einem verlassenen Heidenlager

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I started my mapping with statics, but used dynamics for the first time in Mandrasola.

 

I voted dynamics, but I'd say you can use either, as long as you do it right.

 

Have most of your patrols be static, but put a few dynamic branches there as well. You need to have some basic level of predictability, otherwise the player will be overwhelmed.

 

And here comes the important point, which I feel compelled to mention:

It is basically not about dynamic or static patrolling, but lifelike patrolling. Many FMA's patrols are acually quite unimaginative, like robots wandering the same path FOREVER on rails. Immersion breaking. FMA's should think about AI's as living beings with given (and paid for) tasks, but with human needs and desires.

 

Use mainly static patrolling, but add a few low probability (10-25%) deviations: have the guard visit the toilet. Or the kitchen to grab a bite. Maybe he stops to warm himself in front of a fireplace. Maybe he halts in front of a stationary guard and faces him for a while (looks like chatting from a distance), or make a conversation even. Maybe the grunt guard peeks in the female servant quarters in hopes of seeing something bare. Use a lot animation-nodes. The aim with this is to make the AI look more real and rich. Also a toilet visiting guard offers a neat blackjack/slip past opportunity.

 

If you make a dynamic patrol route where the AI can bounce suddenly make full turns and wanders like a brownian drunk, that is bad move.

 

Use static main patrol with a few dynamic branches to make the AI's more lifelike.

Clipper

-The mapper's best friend.

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I feel the same like Sotha.

 

You might like to add the options "static + few dynamic" and "static + lot dynamic"

"To rush is without doubt the most important enemy of joy" ~ Thieves Saying

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ditto. Guards can be more predictable than others though. A guard might have a set route, even back and forth, but a little variation makes it seem more human. Others, well, there is just not enough time or entities to put in all the randomness I'd like to put in. Yet, still avoid unfair traps for the player.

 

As for wait timings, I generally by default put min 11, max 22 to 33 and vary from there. Less than 11 seconds is a bit abrupt; longer than 33 might be too tedious if the player is waiting for an AI to leave (although I have waited several minutes in some situations in Thief.)

 

btw you can have random patrolling in Thief, (T2 at least) but I don't know what proportion of FMs used it. It was even used by some in a blue room to trigger a random event as I think originally it was the only way to get randomness.

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Very interesting, thanks for your replies! I found this topic important, so I wanted to ask both, mappers and players about it.

I only gave you these two options, because otherwise everyone would have been klicking on "both" and that's not a meaningful result I believe.

That randomnes thief2 blueroom is very funny. I've read about this years ago when I was workin' in DromEd. Now I do recall and I have to laugh a bit about it :D

"Einen giftigen Trank aus Kräutern und Wurzeln für die närrischen Städter wollen wir brauen." - Text aus einem verlassenen Heidenlager

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Static.

 

- The player usually won't be there when they deviate from a patrol path. It'll seem random to the player. It's only "realistic" if the player is there to witness it, and the guard says loudly, "I gotta pee"... otherwise it's the game being unfairly difficult.

- It makes tracking guards much more difficult. As a map author you might be able to ghost your entire level, but put yourself in the player's shoes. They might creep around a bank vault, only to find out you didn't place any guards there -- except for 2 that randomly deviate towards the vault.

- Dynamic patrols can work, but only if you clearly announce it so that the player knows to look for those changes. Maybe a loud bell to signal changing of the guard, or to summon a priest away from a chamber.

- There's only so much a player can remember. Irrational is calling it "player RAM" in their interviews. For this reason I'm against re-lighting torches too.

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For this reason I'm against re-lighting torches too.

Even on higher difficulties? I'd vote for static on easy with some dynamic patrols and torch relighting on the harder difficulties.

 

The trick is to make careful decisions about where these features should be used. Hardest difficulty will often include an objective not to knock anyone out or maybe have a limit to the number of KOs, so things are already much more difficult for the player.

Edited by Midnight
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Robotic, static patrols were one of the things I hated about Thief. It was unrealistic and made things far too easy. You never had to worry about where a guard would go once you watched them do their route once; you knew exactly how much time it would take a guard to return and how long he would be looking the other way. Enemies that are completely predictable are boring.

 

While I wouldn't argue for total randomness, I think dynamic patrols are the only reasonable way to make good maps. You still can get a sense of where you're safe and where you're not, but you can't entirely take the risk out of AI by knowing exactly what they're going to do.

 

Getting spotted is not failure in a stealth game. Getting *caught* is. However, thieves have plenty of equipment to use to keep that from happening, not to mention the advantage of being faster and more agile than their adversaries. Some of my most exciting moments have come from trying to escape after being spotted.

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In Thief 2 you could have 'random patrols' without blue room trickier, but you laid out a circle of points. The ai would either follow the circle (whatever shape they are in) from 1-10, or the ai would random patrol from any point to any point. (1-5-1-7-8-3...). I found that to be good for wide open areas but it would cause them to 'drag' around corners too.

 

TDM patrols are awesome. You can set the 1-10 patrol route. But the random is different.

 

Let's call it Semi-Random.

 

Point 3 can have 2 points away from it, say 4a and 4b. 4z leads to one loop, 4 b to another which has an anim. Then they can both meet up back at point 1, point 5, whatever. Then point 8 can have 2/3 splits...

 

The beauty is that the ai doesn't just wander aimlessly between random points, they can have a set patrol through a set of hallways, then either go left to chapel or right to toilet. If they go to toilet they can then go to chapel afterwards. So it's like they are on one set patrol, but needed a break. When they are done they go back to same patrol. So it can be fairly predictable for player, and yet have enough randomness to give it some life and tension.

 

You can also control them in areas like hallways where you don't want them bumping walls, and have their paths split at logical spots.

 

(you can also do the T2 random by tieing all points to all other points. So everytime the ai gets to point 1 there's a random chance they will go to any of the other 9 points, etc..)

----------------

 

Semi-Random is how I like to do patrols for most ai. A fairly set and rigid patrol, but with an extra loop or two in there that throw the player off a little bit, but not too much. Not too predictable, not too random. This is also good for gaurds on very long patrols. The player will never be able to study their routine anyway, so it just mixes it up from load to load or play to play.

 

But i still think some ai need to be on a very rigid 'patrol'. Say a guard in front of a gate. His job is to guard the gate. Of course just standing there makes it hard for player to sneak by, or BJ. So you need him to turn, look away predictably enough that the player can time it, get in there and take him out. Other wise it's just brutal. And if that's too random then the player will get caught too easily.

Dark is the sway that mows like a harvest

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Having worked as a walking guard for years, I can say that, at least for me, my patrols are VERY "static". I go the exact same way and do everything EXACTLY the same, just so it's as quick and easy as possible. I do look around and try to be aware and such, but I certainly don't "mix it up" and go another way.

 

Man, this stupid crappy job sucks the life out of me, I gotta quit and do something more productive with my life!

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I'll probably get crucified for making this comparison... but here goes:

 

 

When I was a little kid and my first video game experiences were with things like Pac-Man, Frogger, Donkey Kong, Crystal Castles, Berserk, etc. Some of which had enemies with predicable patterns and others with reactive behaviors. I always found myself more charmed with the reactive games (I am, to this day, disappointed that Pac Man's reactive behavior is mostly illusory and the game can be beaten with patterns.) My nirvana of that age was the game Sinistar where I reveled in the dogfights with warrior ships rather than trying to dodge them and focus on the drones. (It wasn't till I was a little older that I found that this was a viable strategy as long as you stay next to the formative Sinistar pieces...). During those dogfights, I was no longer playing a game but instead I was immersed in the experience of actual space combat.

 

As I grew older and passed through the 8 and 16 bit gaming era, the desire to return to that feeling stuck with me. My area of focus (likely wrong) was scrolling space shooters like R-Type and Raiden. By this point in my gaming endeavors "the jig was up" I knew that the enemies had predicable patterns an used a process of trial and error to memorize the levels. Even with this in mind I never fully accepted the proper orthodox for playing these games. Every new level I was granted I would dare myself to dodge\weave\shoot through the barrage at full speed and live for a small moment in that immersed state of being a lone star-fighter. Predictably this would lead to most of my first level runs being horrific failures but on rare occasion I would soar for near eternity through waves of ships (and slow circular bullets :laugh: ). My friends would mock me in eye-witness of any new shooter I played but then would be amazed at how far I had gotten or how quickly I beat the game.

 

Fast forward to the present. Rather than treating TDM missions like a skilled Thief who pre-plans all his actions, I love to just dive in and see what's in a mission and see where I can go. It's much more easy to be immersed in an FPS view game than a space shooter and stealth games (especially the "immersive sim) seem to take that to it's logical extreme. So, for me, most missions with significantly large patrol routes are essentially random because of my old habit of willfully ignoring the patterns to attempt to hit this "Zen of immersion". When a mapper spices up things with actual random behaviors they actually keep my suspension of disbelief running for longer. Yes, some of these missions can be brutally difficult as a result but that feeling is worth it.

 

^_^

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Having worked as a walking guard for years, I can say that, at least for me, my patrols are VERY "static". I go the exact same way and do everything EXACTLY the same,

 

Guards who are on an actual patrol route are one thing, but even then no one does things like clockwork every time. Real people stop to straighten a shoelace, look out a window, or lean against a wall for a moment. Additionally, a lot of AI in maps are not on an official patrol, and it looks quite silly to have them doing exactly the same things over and over in a loop.

 

Man, this stupid crappy job sucks the life out of me, I gotta quit and do something more productive with my life!

 

I can imagine a TDM guard saying that.... :)

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Having worked as a walking guard for years

A guard by day, thief by night? Talk about inner conflict!

Will we one day see a Komag FM called "A Guard's Life" (with static patrols)? biggrin.gif

 

This talk about 'static' patrols reminds me of everyday behaviour of humans and how we tend to have very little variety in our movements on a day to day basis. There are any number of reasons why we might settle on a particular route such as interesting scenery, shortest path, points of interest and combinations of these.

 

I remember a couple years back a telecom company revealed anonymous user data from mobile phones showing how most people visit the same few places every day, and take the same route to those places. Knowing this, I now sometimes introduce random diversions into my routes to appear less predictable to the eye in the sky. laugh.gif

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I'd say static with variable delays, to semi-random; it's still at its core a gameplay mechanic. (Of course it depends so much on the scene you're designing, and each has a place in different scenes.) But to add another piece to the discussion: as or more important than just the route for me is the coordination of multiple AI paths.

 

I think it's good for multiple AI routes to be coordinated because it's just too easy to have one AI without the threat of another AI that sees you go after the first, then that AI also is himself covered by the first. Then once you have 2+ AI routes, what I like to have is a bit of overlap or intersection, particularly at bottleneck places in the space. So then the player is in the corner watching both AI and it's a matter of trying to time the best moment when both AI are out of the way, and really having to commit once you're out there because one of them could be coming back soon. It's still a bit static, so you can plot, but the variable of overlap still makes it a challenge ... so you sort of get the best of both some predictability and variability, ideally.

What do you see when you turn out the light? I can't tell you but I know that it's mine.

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It is also worth mentioning that TDM can change the patrol route if the ai gets alerted, if mappers choose so. This way instead of going back to their normal patrol when they find a corpse or something, they instead use a different set of patrol points, say walk around the treasure room, or guard the only exit.

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I'm quite surprised that there are so many votes for static patrols. Makes me wonder if we're all using the same terms. I'm assuming that "static" means like T1/2--guards do exactly the same route, stop for exactly the same number of seconds in exactly the same spot, and turn to face directions like clockwork every time. Completely consistent and predictable.

 

Dynamic, on the other hand, means that AI still have specific paths to follow, but they don't always go in exactly the same order. When standing, they wait for random periods of time, and they will occasionally do things like walking into the kitchen to eat some carrots, or going over to the fire to warm their hands.

 

I feel like people are assuming that dynamic means totally random or something.

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Well that's why I coined the 'semi-random' name Spring.

 

Static would be exactly the same all the time. I'd say this still allows for a bit of random turning, pausing. But it is still at it's core a very rigid patrol routine.

 

Random would be pretty much random all the time. The player never knows what the ai will do.

 

Semi-random is in between. The Ai has set paths, but parts of the paths are always the same.

ie: Guard walks from lobby, through hall #1 to kitchen everytime he leaves lobby.

 

But once he gets to kitchen he either:

a-does a cellar patrol or

b-eats a carrot, then does a cellar patrol or

c-after eating carrot gos to the bathroom.

 

at the end of each one of those patrols he is linked back to the lobby. So his patrol is really lobby/kitchen/lobby. But in the kitchen there is some randomness involved.

 

Static would just be lobby/kitchen/lobby, same everytime.

 

Random would be lobby/kitchen/lobby/carrot/lobby/cellar/kitchen, no predictable order.

---------------------

 

@ Biker. Bascially you just make all your path_corners. If you link 1-2 he will always go to 2 after 1. if you link 1-2/3 he will randomly choose either 2 or 3.

So you can have a path with side loops very easy. Or have a web of 10 points for full on random.

 

============

I think it depends on the situation if you're going for most realistic.

 

In a rich mansion, with well paid security and structure they would have gaurds behaving correctly and following a rigid routine.

ie: guard is on lobby/kitchen duty. No eating on shift. No drinking. No wandering, stay focused. This guard may pause a little in different spots, but he is well paid/well trained and has to stick to a tight routing to keep his job.

 

In a less wealthy household they're more likely to have goof-offs. The guy that stops for a carrot break. Or decides to check the cellar for a little shot of brandy.

 

non-guards are more likely to be random patrolers. ie: the lady of the manor might wander to the kitchen for a bite, might go to the bathroom, may go read in the library next. She doesn't have a set schedule, she is free to do what she wants.

 

============

The thing about static patrols is they give the player a very good sense of timing, when they can go, when they wait. They can also be boring, too predictable.

 

The thing with random is it keeps the player on their toes at all times. Can I black jack this guy, or he going to turn and see me. if I wait for a better chance will he come back? If I go in this brightly lit room will he follow me? Or will he turn and go down that hallway? A lot more tense, but also a lot more risky and harder for player.

 

Semi-random gives the player a good chance to get by, BJ, etc... because the gaurd always comes down this hall, turns right, walks through the dark... But sometimes he goes in that door, sometimes he turns around. So I have to strike before he gets to that point, if I wait I loose my chance...

It also makes the game more lively because timings change. If to guards cross paths this will make it harder to time perfectly. Sometimes you get a safe BJ timing, sometimes there are 2 guards there.

 

But i don't think any single way is best. I think there are times/reasons to use all three options. having ai do to many off the beat things can be as bad as having all ai on a set boring patrol.

Dark is the sway that mows like a harvest

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I'll boil my last post down to a pithy rule of thumb, not written in stone but just a general idea.

 

Static or semi-random is good when there are other AI with overlapping patrols or lines of sight or some other risk (like a blinking light) where you have to time the two or more things in tandem; so even though you know where the AI is going you still have to figure out the best window of opportunity to go, and that's variable.

 

Variable paths are good when there's just the one AI & you can follow him around without much risk, then it's probably good that he could turn in an unexpected direction at any time.

What do you see when you turn out the light? I can't tell you but I know that it's mine.

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Do remember, that sudden deviations can be beneficial to the player: an sudden way to get in when the guard goes to the toilet.

 

Also I think mappers should use visual cues to show AI who are probably gonna stray from their paths: a guard who drinks constantly, is bound to visit the toilet soon. ;)

Clipper

-The mapper's best friend.

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Dynamic patrols might not be entirely random, but I argue the average player (i.e. one who rarely ghosts if ever, and they think Thief 3 on expert is pretty hard, etc.) doesn't know that. They don't see, "the guard must be hungry" -- instead, they show up in the kitchen they just scouted a few minutes ago and suddenly there's a guard there for some reason, despite no guards ever having been there for the past hour. There's no witnessed "cause" so it's random to the player, which is just as bad as technically random.

 

And Komag's right, static is actually more "realistic"... though any quest for realism in a game with steampunk robots and magic seems a little misdirected to me.

 

Realism isn't the goal. It's about how the guards are stupid and you are clever.

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They don't see, "the guard must be hungry" -- instead, they show up in the kitchen they just scouted a few minutes ago and suddenly there's a guard there for some reason, despite no guards ever having been there for the past hour

 

If these players are scouting the room for an hour, then they'll see the AI go there at least once. If they're not paying attention to where the guards go then they will ALWAYS seem random, whether they're actually static or not.

 

Besides, it's not like AI sneak up on you...part of the reason they have loud footsteps is so that players can hear them coming and prepare for it.

 

And Komag's right, static is actually more "realistic".

 

Come on. Find me the real life guard who stares south for exactly 20 seconds, and then north for exactly 10 seconds, every 3.30 minutes all night. Human beings are not clockwork machines.

 

It's about how the guards are stupid and you are clever.

 

Apparently not for everyone. It's incredibly easy to make the guards stupid. Yet one of the most common requests we got in the early days of TDM development (and continue to get to this day) are to make the AI more intelligent and believable. Otherwise, we probably could have cut our development time in half.

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