Vote: Different 'Sticky'-Climbables?

[Fidcal]

What do players think of sticky-climbables other than ladders and ropes? What do you think of ivy, drainpipes, banners, chains, rough broken walls, other? Or indeed any surface or construction that might be climbable in reality but is not technically mantleable (like the shaft in St. Lucia.) Is there anyone who would not think to try climbing ivy? Or a drainpipe? Or a metal grid? Ought players to consider new possibilities?

 

Do you think we should be made aware and be prepared and even expect to try to climb things other than ladders? Is it a good objection that if players currently would not think of climbing a banner or drainpipe that we must *never* have them in FMs?

 

If one pipe,chain, etc is climbable, should ALL be climbable? Or at least testable without risk?

[Sotha]

Good question. Sometimes they are climbable, sometimes not.

 

I'd say it is map specific. If a map has one climbable ivy, then all ivies in that map should be climbable. That applies to all the options you give in the vote. Consistency is the key.

 

Ladders and ropes should be guaranteed climbables, but all others should be consistently map specific.

 

Or even better player character specific. Thomas Porter can climb ladders, ropes and chains, but not ivies or drainpipes.

 

Therefore I'll not vote anything. Everything can be climbable, but the mapper must keep it consistent.

[Melan]

As long as it is internally consistent (i.e. if one pipe is climbable in a mission, all pipes that could bear your weight are climbable), go for it. It is probably better not to depend too much on "exotic" climbable types too much unless it is is completely apparent (like that shaft in St. Lucia), or there are hints to steer the player towards them. It is okay if the player misses a climbable when

• it is only one of multiple ways to get to a location;
• they lead to non-mission-critical areas.

For example, it would not naturally occur to me to try climbing up banners, but I'd very much try larger vines or pipes.

 

[edit]This poll will not tell us much since there are no options to vote no. [/edit]

Edited July 15, 2011 by Melan

[fllood]

What do you think of ivy, drainpipes, banners, chains, rough broken walls, other? Ought players to consider new possibilities?

Definetly! I love doing that as player and hurray every time a mapper thinks about including that.

 

Do you think we should be made aware and be prepared and even expect to try to climb things other than ladders?

If one pipe,chain, etc is climbable, should ALL be climbable? Or at least testable without risk?

I try every ivy and drainpipe I see and can reach and I'm disappointed if ivy, chains and drainpipes are NOT climbable. In my opinion these should be climbable as standard.

 

I do not try broken walls and banners normally for I had never had the situation them being climable. But I really would applaud it and find it much rewarding to find out if sometimes unexpected things are usable. For these more "exotic" vertical ways it would be good if FMA's embed a hint in the story for"some other way to go" in a readable, visually or in the briefing for non-usual ways of possible movement do exist.

 

So I say it's good to have some climables you can rely on (ladders, ivy, pipes and chains). But not to make everything standard as finding out as player that there are ways to climb sometimes that are not "standard" do make you feel clever and accomplishing when seaching, trying and then finding the new way that is hinted in the story or visually that such unusual climable do exist.

 

On a sidenote:

 

One thing should be considered if making many objects climbable by default in a FM is that it may have a huge impact on gameplay - actually make it more easy for the player (more player routes, especially more safe zones) which could be intended from the FMA as other routes being set more risky by design (more lights, AI archers/spellcasters). ... This hasn't specifically to do with what kind of objects are made climable so may be some offtopic to the first post. Anyway I feel it is something that isn't much considered and thought of in gameplay design in many TDM FMs I played so far.

 

For example I love the non-ladder climable ways to the church roof in Biker's St. Alberic. However these are all absolutly "safe" zones and while cool to discover don't feel much rewarding having accomplished climbing them. They woud have been if lightend well or made it high tension having some AI very near by. In Jesps' Flakebridge it felt very rewarding getting up to the beams via the ladder as you had to avoid the AI first and find and sneak to that ladder through the whole church to make your climb (if coming from the main entrance as I did). Even if you decide to use the rope arrow instead you had to find and sneak first to a good safe spot past the patrolling attentive AI. Great setting of AI, Climables and Beams imo. in that FM. The rope walk added to that for I was uncertain first if it's solid or not. Much rewarding it was!

Edited July 15, 2011 by fllood

[Fidcal]

[edit]This poll will not tell us much since there are no options to vote no. [/edit]

Yes it's not working ideally. The percentages are misleading on a multi-answer poll. It can be taken if anyone voted at all but didn't vote for a particular answer then that is a no for that choice. Currently 6 people have voted in total and 6 voted for ivy so that is 100% although it shows 25% because there are 6 out of 24 total votes which has no meaning here. So you have to look at the total people who voted at the top then divide the votes for any selection into it.

 

One reason I want lots of variety is that there are lots of situations where a rope or ivy is just not appropriate. A chimney above an extinguished fireplace in a torture chamber might have a chain but not rope or ivy; a castle is not going to have ropes or chains but might have banners. We need every option imo and I think players ought to get used to a wide variety.

[Glyph Seeker]

I remember playing the original Rainbow Six for the first time over a decade ago - the first mission is a belgian embassy building. The back has a garden with an ivy climbing up to the first floor.

 

To my astonishment, the level design allowed me to climb it! Ever since, games or levels which surprise me in this kind of way always please me immensely.

 

That said, Sotha (as usual) has hit the nail on the head. If there's an exceptional ivy or drain pipe, I would expect it to be highlighted somehow to lure me towards it .

Edited July 15, 2011 by Glyph Seeker

[Baddcog]

definitely should be carried throughout a mission whatever the authors choice.

 

personally I'm not too found of having too many climables. I hate jumping at ivy only to not stick, etc...

 

Banners, it would be pretty damn tough to climb a banner. It's not like you can grab a handful of cloth and just climb it, would be very hard to do in real life, you'd have to have amazingly strong hands.

 

drain pipes, broken walls, sure. They'd be better for climbing. But we introduce too many possibilities then it becomes hard for mappers to block off areas.

 

it's one of those points that 'reality' doesn't work all that well translated into the confines of mapping.

[jdude]

You need to add a none option to the poll or else we can't tell how many people don't like any of them.

[Bikerdude]

The only thief game I know that had climbable banners thus far has been TDS and even then it was only in an FM.

[jdude]

I agreee with most here but not with chains or banners (for the reason's Baddcog listed). In reality if you tried to climb a chain it would sway violently and make a lot of noise, probably pinch you too. The shape of chains, especially large make them very difficult to grasp, even when they're not hanging and even with gloves. This is not represented by climbing straight up a func_static in TDM.

 

Also why are metal grids so low in the votes?

[Sotha]

Also why are metal grids so low in the votes?

 

A ) People do not understand.

B ) The poll is malformed. No conclusion can be drawn.

[Springheel]

Climbing a banner makes no sense to me at all. What would you grab on to? Sliding down one might be vaguely plausible, but climbing?

 

The others all seem reasonable to me.

[Professor Paul1290]

I think it would be nice if climbable vines and chains were standard across all FMs, but there's the issue of it possibly causing problems with with already existing FMs. I can't recall any specific ones off the top of my head though.

I often do try to climb vines and chains only to find that they aren't climbable.

 

This isn't the only thing that feels inconsistent at times, openable windows and grabbing readables are also features that feel inconsistent between FMs and within FMs as well. Different FMs can have different requirements with these and it should be the author's choice, but it still feels awkward sometimes to run into them when you're not expecting it.

 

I think what could help the problem would be to have a page somewhere with details regarding what players are going to expect so that authors know what is considered "standard" in these cases. It wouldn't stop anyone from doing what they want, but it could help authors be more aware of the issue and try to keep consistency within their FMs when possible.

[SiyahParsomen]

Climbing a banner makes no sense to me at all. What would you grab on to? Sliding down one might be vaguely plausible, but climbing?

 

 

jump to 2.30

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lJmCem8qbTE

[STiFU]

Awesome show!

 

Anyway, climbables are somewhat problematic in my opinion, as the mapper needs to somehow communicate to the player what is climbable and what isn't. On Fauchard Street for example, I had no idea you could climb up (because of spoilers I won't go into any detail here). Only in the end, after almost completing the mission, I discovered you could climb up some places, which was a real shame, as it would have been a lot "thievier" than my approach.

 

It's basically the same discussion as with decorative doors: How can the mapper communicate to the player that a door is unusable, so that he doesn't need to approach it? Because most surfaces are not climbable, I never approach them for climbing, unless I don't find any other way out. So from my standpoint, more diversity in climbables doesn't help at all. BUT if there was some sort of disclaimer where the mapper tells the player (in the mission notes or somewhere else) what kind of things are climbable, I'd be totally fine with it. Of course it would have to be consistent across the whole mission, but that's obvious.

[Fidcal]

Thanks for that video, SiyahParsomen It clearly indicates that climbing fabrics is possible and surely even more acceptable in a fantasy game. I am sure if we had had some banners climbable from the start that everyone would have accepted it as normal.

 

In addition, I see no reason for absolute consistency if the FM informs the player of the inconsistency. When you play, explore. Go and try things. Will this drainpipe hold my weight. Can I get a grip? No? What about this one? Yes! Some doors you can open; some you cannot. Some vines are climbable; some not. Not a big deal.

 

Why have a rigid set of rules which cannot be imposed anyway so every map you play might be different and even vary within the map. We have no choice but to deal with it. Accept that in every map you might find new ideas, things done differently. I find that more exciting than many other games with more limited interaction and a set of fixed symbolic features. Dark Mod is a dynamic, extendable, game environment. I'd hate to think of it being too restricted.

[Springheel]

t clearly indicates that climbing fabrics is possible

 

He didn't actually climb it, he just went sideways, which is a lot easier. I still highly doubt he would have been able to travel upwards.

[SiyahParsomen]

He didn't actually climb it, he just went sideways, which is a lot easier. I still highly doubt he would have been able to travel upwards.

 

it's not harder than climbing a rope as long as you can grab it. You can climb from one side of it easily. However, it needs some animation on banner. Otherwise it'll look unconvincing imo.

[New Horizon]

He didn't actually climb it, he just went sideways, which is a lot easier. I still highly doubt he would have been able to travel upwards.

 

It also had some strategically placed pleats to make the climb across easier.

[fllood]

Talking about reality of climbing a banner while undead roam the streets and mages wielding fireballs at you guys ?

 

cool video post Siyha!

Edited July 16, 2011 by fllood

[Baddcog]

undead and mages are a fantasy genre.

 

Climbing banners is a physics question. TDM has fantasy, but it also has reality and real world physics. Someone has to differentiate between the two. Just because mages can have fire spells doesn't mean the player should be able to defy gravity.

 

About the vid, sure he climbs across the banner, which is pleated strategically for this purpose. It's also most likely a very strong, very thin material, so it bends easy and he can quickly get a handful.

The banners in TDM are no pleated, they also appear to be made of a sturdy, thick most likely cotton weave. Would probably be harder to get a good handful of.

 

He's not pulling himself up hand over hand (which would require horizontal pleats) to help ball it up, and not pull it out of his other hand while doing so.

 

He's also a ninja warrior, these guys are some of the most athletically fit guys around. And it looks like he may have been the only one to even survive to that stage. I agree that the player is a stealthy and athletically fit. But does he train to be absolutely ripped?

[fllood]

Just because mages can have fire spells doesn't mean the player should be able to defy gravity.

If it comes to design or play video games I think gamplay fun is always more of weight than reality.

 

Many video games heroes (as well as in film and literature) are able to achive things a human could never do, not even a very well trained one. For good reasons. Among other it is often central part of the hero's journey of a game or film because most players/viewers simply enjoy identifing with an alter ego with skills a normal human rarely or never would have. And to go through and get thrilled emotionally by situations they never will experience in reality themself. There are countless examples. Indeed it is harder to find games where this is not the case. So if a FM author like his protagonist slightly super-human in strengh to overcome gravity climbing some banners, why not?? ...

 

In my opinion one beauty of projects like TDM is just that every mapper can try his own vision and preference in these things where different opinions and taste exist (climable objects, door handles, AI paths, etc ...). And players will get especially attracted to FMs they share preferences of the decisions chosen by an certain author. Therefore I think diversity between FM/authors regading such decisions is good for TDM. as long as the mapper remain consistent in his decisions through an FM! better even through all of his FMs so players get to know and can rely on an author's style ...

[Springheel]

Accept that in every map you might find new ideas, things done differently.

 

This is obviously true. However, mappers also have to accept that players won't necessarily notice unconventional things.

 

If a mapper decides to make a particular brick wall climbable in his mission (or anything else unexpected), he needs to be prepared for players not to notice that it's climbable, and either provide alternative routes or direct their attention to it somehow.

[jdude]

When I look at the TDM banners they do not look anywhere as thin as this cloth. My impression of them is that they are a heavy cloth or a leather which would be much more difficult to climb up. You can even see through the cloth in the video.