The Norway Tragedy

[Sotha]

The status update thingy has been invaded with discussion about this atrocity so I'll open a thread where people can discuss about it, since nobody else has done that so far. Discussing might help the anger.

 

My personal feeling is mostly sadness, outrage, anger and disbelief of the sheer intentional brutality. My condolences for all our norwegian friends.

 

The society is a human construct so it is bound to have failures. But no such failure can possibly be grounds for this kind of vile and cowardly acts.

 

I fear this sends an unwanted and dangerous message to the world. If you have (any) thoughts you want to have some publicity, go and kill as many people as possible. Then the whole world is gasping and waiting for you to explain yourself. Your ideas are bound to have high publicity. You are guaranteed to have your own chapter in the history books and wikipedia, even if you are a nobody loser.

 

I just hope some more idiots do not get any ideas about this. The society should now send a stern message that if you go about in a rampage killing innocents for any reason, you're gonna be in a world-of-hurt. Fucked and badly.

 

I hope in the end Justice will be served... When that happens, I hope I'll be online watching the news.

[Springheel]

Yet another example of how a single lunatic can cause massive damage to those around him. No easy answers, unfortunately.

[Jesps]

Thank you for starting this thread, Sotha.

 

My condolences goes out to Norway. I'm not sure I can find the words to properly describe my feelings, but I have been very saddened about it (even cried despite not knowing any of the victims). And reflection too, I have attended several political youth camps much like the one at Ytøya. Makes you think.

 

I am not sure the publicity is a strictly bad thing. The more we know about what goes on the heads of people like him, the greater the probability of spotting them in advance. That is my belief anyway.

[demagogue]

The guy wrote like he was in some LARP fantasy. FFS you're not a knights templar, and killing kids at a camp accomplishes nothing.

 

Wish he would have chosen to just rant online like everybody else.

Really sad that innocent kids would be at the mercy of something like this.

[Komag]

Certainly the publicity doesn't help his cause any, on the contrary it always backfires and people turn more against anything he was trying to support. There are insane crazy violent nutcases on all sides of political spectrums, and I always hate it when someone whose position is any way similar to mine goes and does something horrible like this because it only hurts that position. I have no idea what this guy's position is or why he did this, but I bet there some legitimate good people who happen to hold somewhat of a similar (but peaceful) position who are going to be pretty pissed off about it

[Melan]

Yet another example of how a single lunatic can cause massive damage to those around him. No easy answers, unfortunately.

Yeah. I think these are the kind of tragedies a democratic state cannot prevent without betraying its own principles. And nothing will bring back the dead, or ease the suffering of their loved ones. Not vengeance on the perpetrator, nor turning the other cheek.

Edited July 25, 2011 by Melan

[7upMan]

I have no idea what this guy's position is or why he did this, but I bet there some legitimate good people who happen to hold somewhat of a similar (but peaceful) position who are going to be pretty pissed off about it

 

Anti-Marxist, anti-Communist, anti-Muslim, anti-whatever... he has such a horribly convoluted view of the world that it really makes my hair stand up. This guy is not just crazy, but completely insane. Oh, and the "best" part: When arrested, he admitted being responsible for the attacks, but pleads "not guilty". After all, he just wanted to shake the Norwegian people up to make a stand against blah blah blah...

[Shadowhide]

Anti-Marxist, anti-Communist, anti-Muslim, anti-whatever...

 

yes,this fucker is nazi

 

he also killed unarmed innocent people like nazi's do

 

 

[_Atti_]

He was kind of a nutjob judged by his views..

 

He's a racist, but also an anti-racist..He only hates muslims as it seems.

He's a right wing extremist, a christian but also a zionist ( well, that counts as right wing too i guess )

Also was a Freemason..

 

The frightening thing is..there surely was people around him who agrees with him on plans like this.

 

My condolences..

[OrbWeaver]

Certainly the publicity doesn't help his cause any, on the contrary it always backfires and people turn more against anything he was trying to support.

 

Yeah, that's always true of terrorism. A smart terrorist would not commit acts in the name of his own cause, but in the name of the opposing cause (a false flag operation) in order to sway public opinion in his favour. The "blow up the mosque in the name of Islam" plan in the film Four Lions was dismissed by other characters as daft, but would actually be more likely to work.

[Springheel]

"The guy wrote like he was in some LARP fantasy."

 

Right down to talking about whether he would be able to complete the "bonus mission".

[jaxa]

He's been cooperative with the authorities since he wants to spread his message of hate. He revealed that he did in fact have accomplices: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-14280210

[Glyph Seeker]

Typically, the right of the UK press like The Sun reported it as an Al'Queda attack before the facts arose - then quickly changed from calling it a terrorist attack to calling it a "lone madman" attack when it turned out to be a non-Muslim - without any apologies.

 

THEN the "comment" section of the Telegraph exploded into a bizarre straw-man bunch of articles saying that there was a liberal conspiracy to use this attack to criticise the Glorious And Just ways of the Right... Urgh.

 

Jesus just leave the poor families and victims to grieve.

 

All this speculation makes me feel sick and ashamed of the UK press all over again.

[modetwo]

I don't have words... I was shocked when this happened on Friday, and even more shocked when I woke up on Saturday when the National news claimed 80+ deaths. Including young people and even children.

 

I'm visiting Utøya sometime the next few days to lay down flowers and show my respect for the killed, wounded and affected.

 

I'm proud to be a Norwegian as well, to see how we all stay together with love for each other in such troubled times. Oslo is covered in flowers.

 

RIP

 

[BrokenArts]

Have a safe trip Stian, let us know how it goes. If you do take pictures, I'd love to see them. My heart is with the families, and their loved ones who are now R.I.P. :|

[demagogue]

It was humbling to see how many people came out into the streets with flowers.

Makes one feel humanity is still around and still worth caring about.

[Outlooker]

In the last days I tried to research the ideas he and people like he have.

Basically, they see themselves as victims of "racial genocide" by mass immigration.

Their core ideology seems to be this:

 

-Treacherous leftist politicians flood their countries with moslems (well, mostly, Arabs, Turks, Blacks)

(This is true to some degree. It varies, but in little spots there have developed Muslim quarters)

 

-They show statistics that predict birth rate differences to such an extent that "foreigner Muslims" will have the democratic majority in 2050-2070

(Predictions are well, predictions. I don't think it's sure that native reproduction will stay so low in Europe or that the Muslim newcomers will uphold their extraordinary high fertility rate; on the other hand, in some parts of Germany, in the Netherlands etc. Muslim immigrant children represent already about 30% of all newborns today;the favorite newborn 1st name in Britain is now already Mohammad)

 

-Based on this,they seem to see themselves as victims of a campaign of "getting rotted out" slowly - what they try to defend against;they feel threatened in their existence, so to speak. They see it as oppression to being forced to suddenly having many Muslim neighbors and having to live with them and having no saying in the matter at all:

Often, they mention the analogy of their home being invaded by problematic (poor,aggressive,uneducated,completely other culture) outsiders that suddenly sit on your table and eat your food and use your things and you have to pay for all of this (which, to some degree, seems true:in Europe, most immigrants are attracted to the social welfare system, which is considerable and almost utopic compared with the US).

 

Based on this view, they see it as acceptable and necessary to act in "self defense" - by attacking those people they see as driving forces behind the immigration - about all colours of the left-wing political spectrum.

They say the leftists try a Coup d'état by slowly replacing native European population with "brownies" by fertility discrepancy, because most of these immigrants and their offspring will vote pro immigration (leftist/green).Many say the politicians are basically "building themselves a new voter demographic" (in German"Die Politiker wählen sich ein neues Volk"->I'm not good enough to translate this properly).

 

 

This may be far fetched, but at least in Germany immigrant Arabs/Turks are indeed highly overrepresented in crime statistics.Well, it's not surprising, because many of the immigrants are poor and life off welfare, yet have a more robust "masculine" upbringing and different culture and are usually lower educated.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theo_van_Gogh_%28film_director%29

This dutch guy was killed by Muslim immigrants because he made an Islam-critic movie.

Also, much of the knife crime (search any british news outlet for "stabbed"->it's a huge problem there) is perpetrated by the "newcomers"

 

http://truthunlimited.blog.com/files/2010/11/london-muslim-protest-8.jpg

http://www.veteranspostnews.com/ImagesM/muslim/muslim3.jpg

 

use google image search "london muslim protest" and you get the picture - but this is not widespread, only local, at least today

 

Some people feel threatened by this behavior and fear a civilizational regression (Sharia Law,killing of homosexuals,less freedom,more crime/feeling threatened on the streets)

 

 

Other argue, rich/industry elites want mass immigration to press down wages or wanting to distract/cripple the population because of a extended economic downturn (Rise of China Competition,Cheap labor from eastern Europe and so on).

 

 

Thats about it for now for I have to sleep, but you get a rough sketch of the picture.

 

Mass immigration and the problem of socially acceptable integration of the newcomers has been a hot topic in Europe for almost a decade now - but the sudden explosion of violence in Norway came kind of without warning,the violence didn't escalate steadily, it came out suddenly.

I'm afraid many of the thoughts of Anders Behring Breivik are not so uncommon in many heads here.

 

I just hope the situation is not getting worse in the coming years, whatever side going completely ballistic again.

 

 

 

Edit:

I added 3 typical images circling in those groups. The 1st one is even used in the manifesto of the killer.

Edited July 27, 2011 by Outlooker

[Sotha]

In the last days I tried to research the ideas he and people like he have.

Basically, they see themselves as victims of "racial genocide" by mass immigration.

Their core ideology seems to be this:

 

Interesting read, thanks for compiling it. These ideas have been all over the news in Finland for a few years now. Immigration is a central problem, and I suspect that is also affecting greatly why the True Finns are now the most popular party.

 

Die Politiker wählen sich ein neues Volk

 

My german sucks, but would it be "The politicians choose themselves a new people/nation?"

[MoroseTroll]

My sincere condolences to all Norwegian people. No matter what goal Anders Behring Breivik wanted to reach - he has killed innocent people, and therefore he is a terrorist.

Edited July 28, 2011 by MoroseTroll

[Melan]

It originates from, and resonates with a poem by Bertolt Brecht, the famous playwright (and all-around dirtbag):

Nach dem Aufstand des 17. Juni

Ließ der Sekretär des Schriftstellerverbands

In der Stalinallee Flugblätter verteilen

Auf denen zu lesen war, daß das Volk

Das Vertrauen der Regierung verscherzt habe

Und es nur durch verdoppelte Arbeit

zurückerobern könne. Wäre es da

Nicht doch einfacher, die Regierung

Löste das Volk auf und

Wählte ein anderes?

 

And in English:

After the uprising of the 17th of June

The Secretary of the Writers Union

Had leaflets distributed in the Stalinallee

Stating that the people

Had forfeited the confidence of the government

And could win it back only

By redoubled efforts. Would it not be easier

In that case for the government

To dissolve the people

And elect another?

 

Outlooker: The more I read about this case, the more I think Breivik will have a lot of resonance, and his bizarre "manifesto" will become a point of reference for many. Not widely read, since it is huge and full of enormous internal internal contradictions, but widely quoted, studied and argued about, because it is about the fears of our time. For a lone madman, he will do a lot more damage yet.

 

WRT the suddenness of the tragedy, it is not entirely surprising. Increasing tension, a strange mood, then explosive violence: that's how small and large societies break. And there is a lot in both Europe and the US right now that is very close to breaking.

Edited July 27, 2011 by Melan

[BrokenArts]

As far as his Manifesto goes, not if *Anonymous* has anything to say about it. Anyone know who they are? Google if you don't know.

 

http://www.geek.com/articles/news/anonymous-plans-to-destroy-oslo-gunmans-manifesto-20110726/

 

 

Anonymous is a very busy group, and they're quite good at what they do. I'm sure some of you have heard of them.

[7upMan]

I just hope the situation is not getting worse in the coming years, whatever side going completely ballistic again.

 

I'm sure the haters from PI-News (German anti-Muslim, pro-US and pro-Israel/Zionism website) will be ecstatic. Finally someone "who's doing the right thing." They are no better an the ultra-rights in the US and everywhere else who will probably celebrate this date in years to come. Oh, and already conservative German politicians are crying out massive for data retention and other Big Brother-like surveillance measures.

[Mortem Desino]

I'd like to think nobody anywhere (much less the US) would celebrate loss of life. Not cool.

[nbohr1more]

As far as his Manifesto goes, not if *Anonymous* has anything to say about it. Anyone know who they are? Google if you don't know.

 

http://www.geek.com/...festo-20110726/

 

 

Anonymous is a very busy group, and they're quite good at what they do. I'm sure some of you have heard of them.

 

While the sentiment is good, I think it's better if we have evidence of the thought process that leads to these actions. Also, when right-wing thinkers are compared to Breivik, (if the Manifesto is defaced) they will be able to claim that Breivik "never said that" or worse "he said the exact opposite". Yes, some of the trends that Breivik railed against are rooted in real problems but the dialog should not be "hide all knowledge of these problems" it should be "How can we peacefully and realistically grapple these concerns? How can we ensure that nobody's culture is trampled? How can we ensure that cultural backgrounds that display inherent lack of respect for human rights are kept in-check without being offensive to those cultures and (especially) those within those cultures who don't ascribe to that backward cultural baggage."

[7upMan]

I'd like to think nobody anywhere (much less the US) would celebrate loss of life. Not cool.

 

Oklahoma bombings? Or attacks on abortion clinics? Sorry, but this is neither the first or the last time that hater groups (be them right-wing or left-wing) will support and celebrate mass-murder, especially in the US.