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Combat...generally not liked?


nbohr1more
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15 members have voted

  1. 1. Would offering "reverse" [Click then Gesture] controls help with combat ?

    • Yes, I do that anyway by mistake
    • No, I don't think it would help
    • Neither, gimme 1-to-1 sword-to-mouse control


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Alright, I'll bring up the one area that has been repeatedly listed as a sour spot in many first impression reviews:

 

Combat.

 

I know that the new animations are on their way so that might improve the perception of it but I think that combat needs to be examined rather than brushed-off as "not a core part of the game".

 

I will again state that players, even those who get trained in combat, instinctively try to use 1-to-1 sword movement to mouse movement. If the attack key made the player stationary and the sword-play real-time, many more players would appreciate that aspect.

 

The all too common scenario:

 

1) How the hell do I combat?

2) Plays training mission

3) This combat ROCKS!

4) Returns to real mission

5) Stumbles over the interface

 

IMHO, if a 1-to-1 sword movement mode were made available, we would see many more positive impressions. Let the mission authors make combat engagement difficult enough to be discouraged. The players should be free to enjoy it, even if it results in a failed mission.

Edited by nbohr1more

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IMHO, if a 1-to-1 sword movement mode were made available, we would see many more positive impressions. Let the mission authors make combat engagement difficult enough to be discouraged. The players should be free to enjoy it, even if it results in a failed mission.

 

not sure what games developed my combat reflexes in this fashion, but I have a tendency to click and drag rather than drag and click, which severely limits my effectiveness in TDM combat, with respect to both attacking and parrying.

 

Wait a minute, didn't this threads title says something about walkthroughs... ?

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Auto-parry not good enough for ye, eh?!

 

post-2515-131191668961_thumb.jpg

 

Edit: Also, this reminds me of a sketch just laying around my HD. I don't know who made it, but it evidently defends the current "Mount & Blade" combat controls.

post-2515-131191685537_thumb.jpg

yay seuss crease touss dome in ouss nose tair

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Yeah, I believe that was a LemonyFresh sketch? (or was that from Ocn...?) ^_^

 

Yes, side-evasion is a complication of a double-context mechanic. I suppose you could artificially fix this by making the engagement state permanent until it has some conclusion... Eg, if the attack key is released then you can change your camera view via mouse-look but cannot actually move. Or, alternately, have a "flee" key to disengage and run. IMHO, that is actually a tangential issue, if the combat view and options were exactly the same but the sword play were more tactile due to direct motion control, I would happily live with any restriction that kept the side-evade from happening. (Yes, I am sure as soon someone added this feature another player would look bring-up this weird restriction and request side-evasion. :laugh: )

 

For me the proper use of combat would be a small skirmish where you could shove back an AI so you can escape. The current combat system seems to be mostly all-or-nothing, if you start a fight you'd better kill that AI. I have had fun with some run-n-slash berserker stuff but that was almost always an unintended kill (only rarely was I able to take a swipe then run with the AI on my tail).

 

 

Edit:

 

That was Lemon alright:

 

http://modetwo.net/d...s-with-a-sword/

 

 

Edit 3:

 

Anyway to move these last comments to Lemon's thread above. :unsure:

Edited by nbohr1more

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2) Plays training mission

3) This combat ROCKS!

4) Returns to real mission

5) Stumbles over the interface

 

Isn't the interface the same in real missions?

 

For me the proper use of combat would be a small skirmish where you could shove back an AI so you can escape.

 

Yes, that's what the combat system is supposed to do. If you parry or land a blow on an AI, they are "flat footed" for a few seconds, during which you can turn and run. Though I have to admit, I have never actually tried to do this. AI can track you so well that your chances of getting away, even with a slight head start, are pretty slim. Even blinding AI with a flashbomb doesn't guarantee that you can get away, if you don't find a shadow fast enough.

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It's hard to say, I don't get caught. lol.

 

But after I switched the swing to move in the direction of my mouse movement I found it to be pretty sweet.

 

It's almost sad that this game is about NOT fighting, because I think the mechanics are worthy of a sword fighting game.

Dark is the sway that mows like a harvest

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Well, that's just it isn't it?

 

How often do you combat in the game?

 

After awhile you loose the skill that you've gained during training. You would need to keep playing the training mission all the time to keep your skills up. If the game were mostly combat, people would love it but because you are discouraged from combat you loose the skill. Also, in training you get a warm-up period. Combat needs to be more pickup and play.

 

Also, Demagogue mentioned in the other thread that the reasoning for this system was to try and avoid creating a game within a game that took you out of context. I'm sorry, but when I sword fight I want control of the sword I have very little care for controlling the player. An alternate lock-on mechanic would solve this. Yeah, it won't win me any friends to say it, but the Zelda "shoulder button" lock mechanic is what most gamers have become accustomed to and will instinctively return to. Or, to clarify further, when you "drag a window or file across your desktop, you don't high-light it then do a gesture then click" you click and drag.

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Isn't the interface the same in real missions?

 

Yes, that's what the combat system is supposed to do. If you parry or land a blow on an AI, they are "flat footed" for a few seconds, during which you can turn and run. Though I have to admit, I have never actually tried to do this. AI can track you so well that your chances of getting away, even with a slight head start, are pretty slim. Even blinding AI with a flashbomb doesn't guarantee that you can get away, if you don't find a shadow fast enough.

 

Maybe so many people save/load so often that they do not have the feel for the escaping / smoke bombs / sword fighting. They reload instead of dealing with the consequences.

 

My personal experience: The only good way to get away from AI's is to climb somewhere or slam a door shut in front of the chasing AI. The AI takes forever to reopen the door so that is very easy getaway.

 

On flashbombs:

I recall testing transaction and if I blinded an AI and ran away, the headstart I get wasn't very long. Usually the flash bomb is used in a panic withdraw situation and it is easy to fumble with that. Since FB's cost a lot of money and they are scarce, maybe the blind time should be tad bit longer. Of course, if the Important People agree.

 

On the main topic:

As for the melee combat, the chances of using melee to escape is negligible at present. Unless the player goes for a kill, that is. It would be nice if good swordplay would reward the player with an escape that does not involve killing. But how to achieve that?

 

Maybe landing a solid wounding blow would have a chance to make the AI to go briefly for full defense and make him back away, trying to get away from the player weapon range. This moment would then be optimal for escaping. The withdrawing should be a kind of which the player cannot exploit: the player could use it only for escaping, but further attacking the AI would just keep the fight going on without giving the player any extra upper hand.

 

As for the melee mechanics.. I dunno. It feels fine for me, but I agree the animations and the sounds make if feel a bit crappy. I think the animations do not make that kinetic swordplay feeling, the sword in my hand does not appear to hit anything, nor does the enemies' attacks have that feeling. My impression is that they just whack the sword through and the sound is the indicator did it hit or not.

 

I remember that in the original thief games, the enemy sword really seemed to hit me (the attack animation halted so that sword really seemed to stop in something) and there was a splash of my own blood. (An old recollection I may be wrong.)

 

But didn't Mortem make some new sounds and some new attack animations are coming, so...

Clipper

-The mapper's best friend.

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On flashbombs:

I recall testing transaction and if I blinded an AI and ran away, the headstart I get wasn't very long. Usually the flash bomb is used in a panic withdraw situation and it is easy to fumble with that. Since FB's cost a lot of money and they are scarce, maybe the blind time should be tad bit longer. Of course, if the Important People agree.

 

 

Yes! I was replaying Transaction and thought the exact same thing!

"No proposition Euclid wrote,

No formulae the text-books know,

Will turn the bullet from your coat,

Or ward the tulwar's downward blow

Strike hard who cares—shoot straight who can—

The odds are on the cheaper man."

 

From 'Arithmetic on the Frontier' by Rudyard Kipling

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I recall testing transaction and if I blinded an AI and ran away, the headstart I get wasn't very long.

 

The blind time is random, but it is somewhere in the vicinity of 8-12 seconds, which is long enough to get away. The problem is, AI can still hear you, and players don't take that into consideration. If you're running, AI will hear where you are based on that and have a good idea where you are when they can see again.

 

Maybe landing a solid wounding blow would have a chance to make the AI to go briefly for full defense and make him back away, trying to get away from the player weapon range. This moment would then be optimal for escaping. The withdrawing should be a kind of which the player cannot exploit: the player could use it only for escaping, but further attacking the AI would just keep the fight going on without giving the player any extra upper hand.

 

This is almost exactly what happens now. If you hit an AI, they play a pain animation that lasts a couple seconds and then they're flat footed (can attack/defend but not move) for another couple seconds after that.

 

I agree the animations and the sounds make if feel a bit crappy

 

The old animations were terrible! I never realized how bad they were until opening them in Maya. The head wasn't even animated...it just rotated with the torso, so the AI weren't even looking at you half the time. Noisycricket's new animations are much better and do add a lot to the experience IMO. Mortem's added new combat sounds as well, so it will be interesting to see how people feel about it after 1.07.

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I've never mastered swordfighting, so I always die and have to try to avoid the fight the next time. Yes, even with auto-parry. Just can't do it. Nada. No way. Couldn't handle the training mission fighting either. For me, it's simply a flailing session, which takes me out of the game. I love Thief/TDM for the sneaking, thievery, and architecture, not the melee combat.

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... and then they're flat footed (can attack/defend but not move) for another couple seconds after that.

 

Ahh, I saw flat-footed in the code and always wondered what it meant. I thought the AI somehow all of a sudden needed special shoes and a note from their doctor to get out of patrol duty.

 

 

 

 

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I never understood the problem people have with combat. I use auto parry and it's incredibly easy to beat a single opponent! (more than one is a problem) I just wait for him to start a swing and hit the middle mouse button and then attack back. You can't lose.

 

However I only fight when I'm bored and not really in the mood for playing seriously :P

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I enjoy how difficult the combat is compared with Thief. Thief I could just dance around a Haunt and kill him easily.

 

In TDM a revenant is real problem!

"No proposition Euclid wrote,

No formulae the text-books know,

Will turn the bullet from your coat,

Or ward the tulwar's downward blow

Strike hard who cares—shoot straight who can—

The odds are on the cheaper man."

 

From 'Arithmetic on the Frontier' by Rudyard Kipling

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Now that I've considered it further, I am not sure I recall any game that uses direct mouse movement to control sword movement. Sword actions are usually relegated to key hits and sometimes relative to player motion. As such, I would have to say that my mental picture of how my enhancement would work is purely derivative of TDM's own system.

 

My proposal, fully fleshed out.

 

1) Keep the existing Combat system

2) Add a Lock-On key

3) When the Lock-On mode is engaged, the camera is fixed on the opponent

4) When the Lock-On mode is engaged the player uses the left mouse button to build momentum at the start of a swing then releases to complete the slash

5) The player can directly change the position and angle until they "release"

 

In essence it works a bit like an old Golf game where you charge-up then release but more fast-paced and tactile.

 

As I've said, I'm not sure if any game has ever done this but it's how I feel the logical extension of TDM combat to real-time sword control would work.

Please visit TDM's IndieDB site and help promote the mod:

 

http://www.indiedb.com/mods/the-dark-mod

 

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My proposal, fully fleshed out.

 

My initial feeling is that this will not work at all when fighting more than one enemies. What about when fighting multiple enemies at once? You have to tappity tap the lock key all the time to choose between the enemies? Does the enemy you are now looking at get always targeted? What if you look elsewhere? Lock stays or is gone?

 

And howsabout blocking then? The player can block while building up energy? Or cannot? Or can but the energy is wasted? Surely the player cannot build up energy and block at the same time? Can you block against a non-locked enemy?

 

The player can directly change the position and angle until they "release"

 

I don't get this. How and what? The position and angle of the sword or the players position and angle?

 

4) When the Lock-On mode is engaged the player uses the left mouse button to build momentum at the start of a swing then releases to complete the slash

 

Does the player need to have 'full' energy to make the hit. Or can he hit at any time. Will the energy bar correlate with damage done?

 

On paper (screen?) this looks needlessly complex. At present you: move, aim, and hit. This new thingy would need you to move, lock, aim, hold mouse, release.

 

I might be willing to give it a try if someone made a test version of it, though. But I'm sorry to say I'm not exceedingly enthusiastic about this.

Clipper

-The mapper's best friend.

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My initial feeling is that this will not work at all when fighting more than one enemies. What about when fighting multiple enemies at once? You have to tappity tap the lock key all the time to choose between the enemies? Does the enemy you are now looking at get always targeted? What if you look elsewhere? Lock stays or is gone?

 

Yes, the enemy who is central to your view will be the locked target. Once in locked mode, your mouse movement will only control the sword, therefore you cannot "look elsewhere". The lock key is for full and detailed engagement of a single enemy, the traditional combat can still be used for situations where you are managing multiple combatants.

 

And howsabout blocking then? The player can block while building up energy? Or cannot? Or can but the energy is wasted? Surely the player cannot build up energy and block at the same time? Can you block against a non-locked enemy?

 

 

The build-up is very quick, akin to the current delay penalty for the "gesture system". It is meant to resemble a click-drag action in a GUI. Yes, you should be able to block against non-locked enemies.

 

 

I don't get this. How and what? The position and angle of the sword or the players position and angle?

 

 

Sword position.

 

 

Does the player need to have 'full' energy to make the hit. Or can he hit at any time. Will the energy bar correlate with damage done?

 

 

Any amount momentum energy will work, the general concept is that a high momentum strike will FORCEFULLY parry the opponents sword block away enough to disorient them so that you can jab them or escape.

 

 

 

On paper (screen?) this looks needlessly complex. At present you: move, aim, and hit. This new thingy would need you to move, lock, aim, hold mouse, release.

 

I might be willing to give it a try if someone made a test version of it, though. But I'm sorry to say I'm not exceedingly enthusiastic about this.

 

The general flow would be:

 

1) Engage in combat as usual

2) If a single combatant has you cornered then hold the lock key

3) While holding the lock key, click and drag the mouse to swing the sword

4) When you release the click in step 3 will determine the force of the swing

 

Again, the momentum build step would be VERY quick and possibly also influnced by how fast you drag the mouse.

Please visit TDM's IndieDB site and help promote the mod:

 

http://www.indiedb.com/mods/the-dark-mod

 

(Yeah, shameless promotion... but traffic is traffic folks...)

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Sorry, but I agree with Sotha. This doesn't sound very user friendly to me at all. You're basically doing all the same mouse and keyboard actions you are now, but with one extra key to press. Not to mention that any 'view locking' runs completely counter to the interface we've established for TDM.

 

 

When people complain about combat, they're basically complaining about one of three things:

 

1. Aesthetics (sound, animations, does it feel believable)

2. Control/interface (is it easy or hard to get the character to do what you want)

3. Difficulty (how hard is it to actually win a fight)

 

The next update should go a long way towards addressing #1.

 

I have a hard time imagining that #2 is the main reason people complain about combat. Frankly, if you have auto-block on, you don't have to know how to do anything more than hit the Attack key and the Block key. It's not strictly necessary to pick anything other than the default attack, so it doesn't really matter if you find it difficult to pick the slash that you want. Timing is important in order to win the fight, but that's a #3 issue.

 

I have a feeling when people are complaining, they're referring mostly to #1 and #3, so we should make sure those two are addressed before trying to change #2.

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I agree that it's hard to say where the perception is coming from.

 

 

My ideas are completely from my own personal preference of having direct 1-to-1 sword movement control.

 

A less drastic change would be to allow users to change the order from "Gesture > Click" to "Click > Gesture" as mentioned both by users in this thread and Lemony's "Daggerfall thread". Perhaps a poll about this would be in order?

Please visit TDM's IndieDB site and help promote the mod:

 

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  • 1 month later...

Right now you can gesture after you click. In fact, that is how the code reads: wait for click, then interpret the gesture. However, there's a very low threshold for how big a gesture you have to make to choose a direction. in TDM 1.0, it used to be a higher threshold (I.e., you had to make bigger gestures to choose), but this meant some time delay while you were making the gesture. People complained about this delay, so we reduced the gesture threshold, which made it feel much more responsive.

 

The downside of this is that if you're already moving your mouse when you click attack, it takes very little extra movement in that same direction to "choose" a direction. You can still do "click then gesture," but you have to make sure you stop your mouse movement before you click, or have very good timing and change directions right after you click. Or, you can start gesturing before you click. It's all a trade-off, but when we used to have it easier to click+gesture, people didn't like it because the momentary delay to integrate the gesture (even one extra frame) made it feel clunky or unresponsive.

 

@Spring: There is a reason to pick different attack directions other than the default left to right slash: if the AI keep getting attacked the same way several times in a row, they will anticipate it and parry faster than if you were to change it up. This becomes more important for better trained characters and higher difficulty settings.

 

For people complaining about the difficulty, is the "Easy" setting really still too hard?

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@Spring: There is a reason to pick different attack directions other than the default left to right slash: if the AI keep getting attacked the same way several times in a row, they will anticipate it and parry faster than if you were to change it up. This becomes more important for better trained characters and higher difficulty settings.

 

I wasn't saying there was no point to using different attacks, but that a novice can blunder through without having to know how to make them.

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LOL, for me, melee combat is usually me knocking the AI repeatedly in the head with the blackjack until they drop dead. I often do better with that method than I do with sword fighting.

But I have had several good sword fights so I must be getting used to it, though I don't know the gestures by heart.

System: Mageia Linux Cauldron, aka Mageia 8

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Right now you can gesture after you click. In fact, that is how the code reads: wait for click, then interpret the gesture. However, there's a very low threshold for how big a gesture you have to make to choose a direction. in TDM 1.0, it used to be a higher threshold (I.e., you had to make bigger gestures to choose), but this meant some time delay while you were making the gesture. People complained about this delay, so we reduced the gesture threshold, which made it feel much more responsive.

 

The downside of this is that if you're already moving your mouse when you click attack, it takes very little extra movement in that same direction to "choose" a direction. You can still do "click then gesture," but you have to make sure you stop your mouse movement before you click, or have very good timing and change directions right after you click. Or, you can start gesturing before you click. It's all a trade-off, but when we used to have it easier to click+gesture, people didn't like it because the momentary delay to integrate the gesture (even one extra frame) made it feel clunky or unresponsive.

 

@Spring: There is a reason to pick different attack directions other than the default left to right slash: if the AI keep getting attacked the same way several times in a row, they will anticipate it and parry faster than if you were to change it up. This becomes more important for better trained characters and higher difficulty settings.

 

For people complaining about the difficulty, is the "Easy" setting really still too hard?

 

Thanks Ishtvan. I haven't done much combat testing since 1.05(?) where you made that change? So I'll have to check my own perceptions. The whole mechanic of activating a contextual state change to combat via a click and gesture is a little loose feeling to me. Knowing concretely that a uniquely mapped key enforces the combat state would be more comforting. Even if the mechanic didn't also include my wish for a momentum based slash system I would be happy to have a combat key.

 

Ideally, I'd love to have a whole diversity of dirty tricks to evade guards. Throwing items, kicking shins, fireman's carry, tripping, etc. That would complete the immersion factor of being a daring Thief for me. I've had some experiences that I recon to be near that ideal (like escaping a guard by circling around the block and ducking down into the sewer) but I'd love to see my ideal come closer.

 

I'll have to toy with weapon scripting some day and see if I can make a prototype.

 

Again, I have to say that in Training I've enjoyed the mechanic (it's quality work) it's just hard to recall the skill when confronted in a real mission.

Please visit TDM's IndieDB site and help promote the mod:

 

http://www.indiedb.com/mods/the-dark-mod

 

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  • 2 weeks later...

Well, I'm very new to this mod, but I had to say that I've been looking for a quality, realistic sword fighting game for a while, and this is the best melee system I've found, by far, specially when taken into context of the stealth missions, and with the good sounds and taunts for immersion - it feels urgent and each combat is an event, that needs your full attention. Having played Mount and Blade before this one, I can also say that Dark Mod's system is superior in the sense that the player is more agile and can actually deal with more than one opponents quite capably (with auto-block on), since running to the sides often allows you to avoid hits and give you a second to deal with another opponent, which was impossible for me in MB.

 

The attention to detail is amazing, the armor pieces add a very interesting dimension to the fights, actually protecting the wearer and forcing you to look for the weak spots (not just to exploit bonus damage, but to actually hit his flesh and put him off balance). Soldiers with helmets are pretty much invulnerable to vertical hacks, unless you can hit them on the shoulder, and the hammer cleric is a real challenge, luck for us they don't wear head armor too! You can sometimes surprise guys charging at you with a head-on thrust to the chest or head, often finishing fights before they begin, and the overall damage levels are just right, you feel vulnerable and frail, but at the same time, lethal, and can end a fight with one well placed blow (if you go for the vital areas, rewarding skill).

 

If you add manual blocking, then you really get a fight, and you have to concentrate to the fullest to beat those guys, which I think is accurate and a nice strategic challenge for those who wish it.

 

If there's anything I would suggest at all, is that sometimes the AI seems to really "stick" to you, that seems to happen on thrusts, they run at you while charging the thrust and often all you can see is their heads against your chest, their bodies are so close you can't see the actual blow coming and have to guess when it's about to hit you in the belly. I also really like nbohr1more's idea of having unpredicatble physical accidents like tripping, or sending a stunned opponent to the floor with some critical hits, that would certainly give it more immersion and a clear chance to flee, if you see more coming.

 

Like many said before, the animations are appropriate but could also be improved, and that would be fantastic. A bit more sound would also be great, angry yells of effort before some blows would help you time your blocks.

 

All in all, I'm really pleased with the system, I'm glad you guys chose to do it this way, it's in perfect synch with the game itself, it feels dangerous, has subtleties, rewards skill and even with it's difficulty, you always feel like a capable sword fighter while at it.

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